Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

New to renewable energy? Have questions? Here's a great place to ask them and view information about wind and solar power basics.

Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby JockAdams » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:00 pm

Hi,
we are just about to move onto our block at kilkevan.
all we have there is 2 sheds and and 2 water tanks .
were frugal and will have a 12 volt fridge, 12 volt TV. 12 computers .
gas stove and gas/solar H.W.S.
do you guys think.
this is over kill ?
or badly designed .
===============================================
4 x 200 watt solar panels.. ( $ 429.00 ) ( $ 1716.00)
Max Power:200W
Max Power Voltage:18.3V
Max Power Current: 10.93A
Open-Circuit Voltage: 23.73V
Short-Circuit Current: 11.5A
Maximum System Voltage: 1000V
====================================
1 x Outback Flexmax 80 Solar Charge Controller ( or equivalent.) ( $ 975.00 )
=====================================
1 x 12V 1000W Dc to Ac Pure Sine Wave Inverter ( $ 449.00 )
======================================
4 x 12 volt 220 AH flooded deep cycle battery's. ( $ 279 each.)( $ 1116.00 )
======================================
12V 30amp 7 Stage UltiPower Automatic Desulfation Battery Charger ( $ 270.00)
Total $ 4526.00
plus wireing approx 400
.................................................
fridge $ 1,700.00

5 kva diesle gen cost us 900 and intend to build a 12 volt wind turbine in the future.

hi and thanks for the forum.
JockAdams
Solar Supporter
Solar Supporter
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:44 pm

re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:32 pm

Welcome to the Energy Matters Forums Jock :)

I really would recommend you go to 24V rather than 12V, and probably a larger inverter, and save heaps of money on an efficient 240V fridge, rather than the 12V one. New efficient 240V TVs may be better value than 12V units too, 80cm LCD screen models typically only use about 30W.
Don't buy 12V batteries and parallel them up, it is poor design, and is likely to lead to problems later on.
Have a serious think about a Lithium battery instead, it will deliver a lot more available energy due to higher efficiency, and you can discharge to a much greater depth without damaging the battery, unlike with Lead-acids, which shouldn't be discharged too much if you want a long life. With Lithium you wont need a desulphator, and you probably don't need it for Lead-acids either, if you charge them correctly and avoid extended deep discharges. Personally I'm in favour of charging batteries with an alternator connected to the motor, rather than using an inverter charger, or genny + charger, less expense for higher charging current.
A 5kVA generator is way overpowered for charging the batteries you are thinking about, but is fine for running large loads, if you don't mind the noise and smell. A 5kVA generator running a 360W charger will be quite fuel inefficient.

Those panels are way too expensive, EM can do you a much better deal 6 X DAQO 200W panels for under $1500. Send me a PM if interested. These days, spending a bit more on PV panels is a better idea than spending more on batteries, panels are relatively inexpensive, batteries are still quite expensive.

What brand of inverter are you thinking about? The cheap Chinese units generally waste a huge amount of energy from your batteries, something you really don't want with a small system. 2nd hand good quality Latronics or Selectronics can often be found online, and are usually very good value.
http://gunagulla.com Loomberah weather and astronomy including live solar radiation intensity and UV + Gunagulla aquaponics, organic eggs and cherries
User avatar
Gordon-Loomberah
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 5763
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:41 pm
Location: Loomberah NSW Australia

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby JockAdams » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:36 pm

that 210 lt 12/24 volt fridge only draws 1.5 - 2.5 A/Hr
i didnt think a 240 volt fridge could go near that plus the slip from an inverter... ?

we also looking a 4 x 24V 250W Polycrystalline Solar Panel for $ 350 each ?...

inverter < Giant Power 12V 1000W Dc to Ac Pure Sine Wave Inverter >

Image

http://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/solar/inverters/giant-power-12v-1000w-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-wave-inve

so hard dealing with "solar salesmen" now days.

been waiting on a few quotes for what i need but more than half never get back to us.
we need power in 14 days there .

the big genny is mainly to run the workshop, any spill can go into the batterys.
JockAdams
Solar Supporter
Solar Supporter
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:38 pm

JockAdams wrote:that 210 lt 12/24 volt fridge only draws 1.5 - 2.5 A/Hr


Do you mean it draws 1.5-2.5A when running? How long does it run per day?
Current X voltage X running time per day = Wh or kWh per day

New fridges use around 1kWh per day or less, but that will be for a much larger fridge, up to twice the capacity of the one you mention. I haven't looked up small fridges in a long time, so not sure where they are with regards to efficiency. A single 200W panel (<$250, plus batteries, which you need anyway) will output enough energy to run an efficient 240V fridge all year in a sunny Qld location. However, a small DC fridge is very efficient, and will no doubt use less energy, but for a huge extra cost, which IMHO isn't really worth it, given the price of PV panels.

we also looking a 4 x 24V 250W Polycrystalline Solar Panel for $ 350 each ?...


Still quite expensive compared to what EM can do. Actually, if you have plenty of roof or other space for a ground mount, then we have some new Solar Frontier 150W panels for $140 each- see :
used-wind-solar/topic6069.html
You can pick them up yourself from Brisbane tomorrow if you want, to save on freight.

inverter < Giant Power 12V 1000W Dc to Ac Pure Sine Wave Inverter >


I don't have any direct experience with that particular brand, but I suspect that this claim: "90% (full loading) / 95% (1/3 loading)" is probably a bit on the optimistic side.
I suspect that fan will run for a large part of the time, if not all the time, it's a lot of power output for a small box. You should ask for a test, current on idle, fan running etc, before you buy... however, I think a 2nd hand Aussie made inverter will be a lot more reliable.
http://gunagulla.com Loomberah weather and astronomy including live solar radiation intensity and UV + Gunagulla aquaponics, organic eggs and cherries
User avatar
Gordon-Loomberah
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 5763
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:41 pm
Location: Loomberah NSW Australia

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby JockAdams » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:04 pm

thank for all the info, you have been very helpfull....
yes when running, total would depend on how much it runs per day, we intend to open once in the morning ,
and once in the evening, it will be keept full of empty trays also.

been looking at this also but theres no link to buy/price in the shop..
danfoss compressor is meant to be best.
http://www.energymatters.com.au/westinghouse-290l-dc-fridge-freezer-rhand-p-361.html

were not that worried about an inverter as we dont have any 240 volt stuff in the house...

but would be happy to hear suggestions for a better one when we do need it, am talking to amin at the moment about lith bats , thank you for that ill def look for prices on them.

our main requirment at the moment is a fridge freezer and 12 volt lights dont really need anything else.

i dont understand those sf-150 panels are they 100 volts ?
JockAdams
Solar Supporter
Solar Supporter
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:55 pm

I don't think we have those fridges any more, but have asked for you.

Yes the SF-150s are high voltage panels:
Open-circuit voltage - Voc 110 V
Optimum operating voltage -Vmp 79 V

The FM80 will charge a 12V battery with them (peak 93.5% efficiency), although not as efficiently as it would charge a 24V battery, and it would be better at 48V. Those panels are unsuitable for use with PWM regulators though.
http://gunagulla.com Loomberah weather and astronomy including live solar radiation intensity and UV + Gunagulla aquaponics, organic eggs and cherries
User avatar
Gordon-Loomberah
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 5763
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:41 pm
Location: Loomberah NSW Australia

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Tracker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:51 am

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:
JockAdams wrote:that 210 lt 12/24 volt fridge only draws 1.5 - 2.5 A/Hr


Reinforcing Gordon's thoughts... even 2.5A at 12V is only 30W and the only device that I could imagine drawing so little power is a Peltier-Effect cooler, and then that would be ALL day long, AND they only typically cool by a number of degrees below ambient.. ( I have a WINE cooler version )
I think (sometimes ;) ) typically 20deg, which means that on a 40C day, it would "cool" to 20C..

If you have a serious use for the power, then you really should look at serious equipment, starting with the battery voltage of 24V minimum or better 48V..

it will be kept full of empty trays also.

An interesting comment.. :!:
..
.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
Tracker
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 5113
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:54 am
Location: SYDNEY --- EA - Network, Retailer - EA

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Tracker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:20 am

JockAdams wrote:===============================================
4 x 200 watt solar panels.. ( $ 429.00 ) ( $ 1716.00)
Max Power:200W
Max Power Voltage:18.3V
Max Power Current: 10.93A
Open-Circuit Voltage: 23.73V
Short-Circuit Current: 11.5A
Maximum System Voltage: 1000V
====================================
1 x Outback Flexmax 80 Solar Charge Controller ( or equivalent.) ( $ 975.00 )
=====================================
1 x 12V 1000W Dc to Ac Pure Sine Wave Inverter ( $ 449.00 )
======================================
4 x 12 volt 220 AH flooded deep cycle battery's. ( $ 279 each.)( $ 1116.00 )
======================================


You do know that you are SOOO close to a far better system..
Clearly, you plan to wire the batteries in parallel and that is NOT a very good plan..
BUT - you can wire them in series for 48V..

You are just sooo close to a far better system, even with the bits that you have listed..

I am confident that you WILL regret starting with 12V..

12V 30amp 7 Stage UltiPower Automatic Desulfation Battery Charger ( $ 270.00)

you already have a generator...

fridge $ 1,700.00

and you could EASILY get a 240V fridge for more like $700, which could give you $1000 extra to spend on a better 48V inverter..
Consider getting a small chest freezer as they are more efficient..

5 kva diesle gen cost us 900 and intend to build a 12 volt wind turbine in the future.

Think twice about a wind generator, unless it's free...
The accepted consensus is that you will get more power/$ from extra solar panels, but if you can build for free, then you may see a small benefit..
..
.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
Tracker
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 5113
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:54 am
Location: SYDNEY --- EA - Network, Retailer - EA

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:35 am

Filling the fridge's empty space full of empty air containers, when the fridge will only be opened a couple of times a day will make minimal difference in energy use.
Air has a specific heat capacity thousands of times less than water, putting in a litre of water at ambient room temperature is equivalent to adding ~3500litres of room temperature air and cooling it to 5C or whatever you run the fridge at. If you can fit 25 2 litre milk containers in, thats 50 litres saved each time the fridge is opened long enough to flush it all out (of course, that's only for a front opening fridge, top opening exchanges minimal air when the lid opens). IE, at 2 openings per day, it will take over a month to save as much energy as you use to cool that 1 litre of water.
http://gunagulla.com Loomberah weather and astronomy including live solar radiation intensity and UV + Gunagulla aquaponics, organic eggs and cherries
User avatar
Gordon-Loomberah
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 5763
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:41 pm
Location: Loomberah NSW Australia

Re: Owyagoing from S.E. Qld + system design

Postby Tracker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:57 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:.......Air has a specific heat capacity thousands of times less than water, putting in a litre of water at ambient room temperature is equivalent to adding ~3500litres of room temperature air and cooling it to 5C or whatever you run the fridge at. .....


You could have been explaining why COLD air won't have much effect cooling a trout pond.. ;)
..
.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
Tracker
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 5113
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:54 am
Location: SYDNEY --- EA - Network, Retailer - EA

Next

Return to Q&A - wind and solar power basics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 2 guests

new solar power specials