Cost of off grid setup.

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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby bpratt » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:28 pm

Tracker wrote:http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/brisbane-region/other-home-garden/6-solar-panels-and-selectronic-inverter-se-22/1017369497

SE22 and 6 panels..!

24V 1200W continuous

A very good start for a background power system.. ;)
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Just had a look at that one, but I'm looking for a 48v system I can build on to. Seemed a bit silly to start with a 24v system, then having to upgrade later.

But thanks for the link.
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby Tracker » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:52 pm

bpratt wrote:Just had a look at that one, but I'm looking for a 48v system I can build on to. Seemed a bit silly to start with a 24v system, then having to upgrade later.....

BUT - you could start with 24V and eg. have two banks of 24V batteries, and WHEN you get more serious, rewire to 48V and resell the SE22..
Six panels... Likely about 150W.. 900W at todays price, worth $450... WORST CASE..
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby bpratt » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:11 pm

Good point, worthwhile considering when you add in to the idea possibly 900w of panels, albeit maybe just 150w panels.
Looking at it that way, it might be worthwhile, although Imbil is a good 3.5 hours drive away from here.
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby Tracker » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:16 pm

bpratt wrote:..... although Imbil is a good 3.5 hours drive away from here.

Take the G-kidz to Noosa as a treat and then say.. "might just go up the hills for a look... Oh look ..Solar Panels.. WOT LUCK ".... :D
Do ya reckon the bride would believe ya.. :?:
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby bpratt » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:11 am

Unfortunately time restrictions will mean that I might not get there for this deal.

Bound to be something else turn up at a later date, or if I'm lucky they might still remain available. :)
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby disenchant@solar » Mon May 13, 2013 3:11 pm

Am i going wrong somewhere but wondering why Pb is still used when in kWh comparison, it costs 2 x Li takes up 5 x the room and weighs 6 times as much, like 1tonne for 24x500Ah and i have to to get that to site.
I think $700 worth of Li BMS and monitoring isn't really an issue on top, especially what your getting is cell level voltage indication and often overcurrent protection built in too.
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby davidg » Mon May 13, 2013 6:27 pm

disenchant@solar wrote:Am i going wrong somewhere but wondering why Pb is still used when in kWh comparison, it costs 2 x Li takes up 5 x the room and weighs 6 times as much, like 1tonne for 24x500Ah and i have to to get that to site.


Where are you getting the LiFePO4 packs from and BMS, what size is it?
My Pb bank is double that and it needs to recharged everyday to make sure proper life from the batteries.

LiFePO4, I did a cost for a 120V battey bank/pack the other day @ 180AH, approx 12kWh DOD @ 50%, that will cost well in excess of $12k. While I would love to use it, the customer will not pay that much extra. Pb I can do 120v @ 600ah for 20% less and no BMS and expect 14kWh from it @ DOD of 20% which should allow a suitable life from the bank, Yes there are higher losses in the recharge etc, but I have to fit a budget. If the budget will not stretch several thousand dollars more at this time. I don't have the choice. The batteries will be delivered direct to site from supplier, no extra charge, client will move batteies to final resting place. I just have a bunch of bus bars and heavy cable to connect up, don't have to setup a BMS, etc. Maybe at the EOL, it will be time to do a LiFePO4 pack/bank for that job then. I really want to do but I have to have a client that has the coin available yto be able to do it.
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby disenchant@solar » Mon May 13, 2013 8:35 pm

[Moderator, removed quoting of entire previous posting]




It's good your not involved with shifting and installing that many tonne of lead, what's the weight?
Just hooking them up must be tricky enough.
I'm just starting out in doing SAP's so i'm no way an expert and i'm just looking at small low load systems with little automany and/or for small grid back up but scalable.
My background, just done hundreds of all sizes of grid connect and spent a fair amount sussing out EV technology, so that's where i'm coming from.

From working out useable kWh, because i'm looking at small systems too, i was first looking at deep DOD's. For each say 48V small system, a 200Ah Lifepo4 @ 80% DOD, seems to equal about 400Ah of Pb@ 45%, DOD if i'm in the ball park, i know this is over simplified mainly because of Pb Ah ratings, Lifepo4 being fairly constant Ah with load.
Ok 15 Lifepo4@200Ah @$250 each, should give about 8.4kWh useable, would be about $3750 @ 10kg each 150kg on a single row shelf 850mm long.
24, 400Ah Pb@$350 each, about 8.65kWh cost $8400@ Edit, sorry 31kg each 800kg, won't even go into delivering them to site, siting them into a much bigger setup & WHS, which i've had the pleasure of doing in substation installs.
Last edited by Gordon-Loomberah on Mon May 13, 2013 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed excessive quoting
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby davidg » Mon May 13, 2013 10:40 pm

disenchant@solar wrote:It's good your not involved with shifting and installing that many tonne of lead, what's the weight?

approx 67kg per battery x 30 of them.

disenchant@solar wrote:Just hooking them up must be tricky enough.

Not hard, just time consuming, any way these don't come with links in this case, I'll be using AL and doing busbars between the posts, using "Aluminox" Paste.

disenchant@solar wrote:i'm just looking at small low load systems with little autonomy and/or for small grid back up but scalable.

Batteries don't really scale you start with a size that's pretty much where you are stuck, banks do not parallel well together when one lot is older than another bank without adding some "smarts" to manage parallel banks.

Skimping on quality equipment makes for very expensive mistakes. If your serious about doing SPS systems you should get amongst others AS4059, which is the standard for SPS (Standalone Power System) or used to be called RAPS (Remote Area Power System).

Do them all sizes, but how many think they can do a "small" one mainly DIYer's and a lot without any understanding or good basic ground rules working with electricity, amazing how many cobble together things that are truly dangerous.

disenchant@solar wrote:My background, just done hundreds of all sizes of grid connect.

Not as many as you by the sound of it, but then I'm very picky abut quality, I have turned down flat more than one because they were simply looking for the cheapest price. I don't do cheap, I don't like tiny grid-connect systems. I want to do it right in terms of correct matching, size, design and installation.

disenchant@solar wrote:From working out useable kWh, because i'm looking at small systems too, i was first looking at deep DOD's. For each say 48V small system, a 200Ah Lifepo4 @ 80% DOD, seems to equal about 400Ah of Pb@ 45%, DOD

In the case of Pb the life will be much shorter @45%. A DOD of about 25% is more like it for a high cycle life.
In the case of LiFePO4 a DOD of about worst case 70% or always less is better, I would normally target 50% so about twice the discharge of Pb. The aim of the game for SPS is high cycle life, rural installs get it wrong that will the last one you will do in that area, you only get one shot in small communities.

disenchant@solar wrote:15 Lifepo4@200Ah @$250 each, should give about 8.4kWh useable

Not enough cells you have based that on 3.2V per cell, more like 17 maybe 18 cells depending on final voltage, of course a suitable BMS to manage it as well. - "Gordon" is the man he lives on this type of system, not a set and forget by any stretch yet.

disenchant@solar wrote:24, 400Ah Pb@$350 each, about 8.65kWh cost $8400@ Edit, sorry 31kg each 800kg,

It's good exercise for the 4 wheel drive :D do a 3 tonne bank 24 x 2v VRLA cells 1800ah, had to get them up 30 deg hill dirt track, oops I mean road into garage under the veranda, 730m above sea level, a pain in the battery room as only enough room for 3 people max, and shading issues the whole year.
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Re: Cost of off grid setup.

Postby disenchant@solar » Tue May 14, 2013 7:51 am

davidg wrote:approx 67kg per battery x 30 of them.

2 tonne + racks+ space needed, more work, more pays hope :) wondering what the built energies are for each and if Li is more attracive there to some clients, though Li would be always imported
davidg wrote:Not hard, just time consuming, any way these don't come with links in this case, I'll be using AL and doing busbars between the posts, using "Aluminox" Paste.

Almipoo, fondly called it doing HV, because never wanted to get any on me, it does'nt like to come off your shirt, good luck, good job dont need a lot expect.
The Li i was looking at, being a lot thinner,just has short bars 55mm size cells and a bms module straddling the cell.
How do you go with resistivity with the Almimox?
I'm just looking at small low load systems with little autonomy and/or for small grid back up but scalable.[/quote]
davidg wrote:Batteries don't really scale you start with a size that's pretty much where you are stuck, banks do not parallel well together when one lot is older than another bank without adding some "smarts" to manage parallel banks.

Besides Li coming out of the box needing smarts as standard, you can't run them without cell level management and by scalable, confusing, i meant at install, the smallest as mentioned being almost a grid back up or shack kind of set up. I'm more thinking scalable 2x,3x,4x for domestics, the Pb being just for comparison.
davidg wrote:Skimping on quality equipment makes for very expensive mistakes. If your serious about doing SPS systems you should get amongst others AS4059, which is the standard for SPS (Standalone Power System) or used to be called RAPS (Remote Area Power System).

Yeh going through AS4059 at the moment, love the lead don't they ;) must have shares in it.
davidg wrote:Do them all sizes, but how many think they can do a "small" one mainly DIYer's and a lot without any understanding or good basic ground rules working with electricity, amazing how many cobble together things that are truly dangerous.

Yes, i've seen a few even 'professional jobs in promotional material, with battery tails hanging in wind :lol: scary sh@#t when there's parallel banks with 2 or 3x the kA.
davidg wrote:Not as many as you by the sound of it, but then I'm very picky about quality, I have turned down flat more than one because they were simply looking for the cheapest price. I don't do cheap, I don't like tiny grid-connect systems. I want to do it right in terms of correct matching, size, design and installation.

Glad to here you say that, it definetly gives you cred, being picky.I worked under other companies banners, i did'nt have time to handle sales and marketing and city based, but was choosey about who i worked on behalf of initially, but even the best still had a few issues, they generally would try to skirt around.
davidg wrote:In the case of LiFePO4 a DOD of about worst case 70% or always less is better, I would normally target 50% so about twice the discharge of Pb. The aim of the game for SPS is high cycle life, rural installs get it wrong that will the last one you will do in that area, you only get one shot in small communities.
Yeh Pb for me was comparison only and i was being generous to the lead there, but being so many Ah ratings for lead as well.
Lifepo4 generally lives a flat graph, generally between 3% full and several% empty, so to suck it to 80% should'nt bother it at all, in fact i'm wondering if just taking the top of them load wise is a good thing, i think regular surge loads, for larger format cells, might be doing them good and also pumping them up close to 4V, but that's another thing, charging algorithms.
davidg wrote:Not enough cells you have based that on 3.2V per cell, more like 17 maybe 18 cells depending on final voltage, of course a suitable BMS to manage it as well. - "Gordon" is the man he lives on this type of system, not a set and forget by any stretch yet.

Your right,too much study at the moment, because i should have known that from the ev packs, but 16S is nominal, so i have to add another cell to match the pb, screws all those neat calcs.
Top quality Li should never sag much across the useable range till close to recharge for a large pack with comparitevly small loads. Nominally 3.3 or 3.2 per cell, 3V would be getting ready to charge, lead falls off a lotmore
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