Empowering Lives

There's more to renewable energy than just wind and solar power - hydro, wave, geothermal to name a few. Discuss these RE alternatives here!

Empowering Lives

Postby Eckert » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:41 pm

Ocean energy is the best option for those concerned about the damages done to the world by the fossil fuel energy. The fossil fuels emit a great deal of harmful gases to produce energy. And their availability is also limited. But this is not so in the case of renewable sources of energy.

Renewable sources of energy like the ocean energy are growing in popularity because of its huge scope. Ocean power technologies are based on the well known principle of hydrodynamic physics and electrical engineering. There is a vast amount of energy present in the waves caused b the wind blowing above water. In fact, the wave power present is calculated around 2-3 million mega watts around the coastlines of the world.

Ocean wave power is found to be so huge that it can power up to 10% of the total energy demand. The ocean wave energy can be captured from the surface waves using point absorbers. It is calculated that only 0.2% of the energy present in ocean has been tapped till date.
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby Tracker » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:21 am

Eckert wrote:Ocean energy is the best option for those concerned about the damages done to the world by the fossil fuel energy.


Now we are on the right track - "Empowering Lives".. Emotive... but the ISSUE that troubles the world, proven or otherwise, is "Climate Change".

There is little doubt that the burning of fossil-fuels DOES cause extensive global damage, and the world does need to be EMPOWERD and seek the alternatives.. ANY clean alternatives !
Fossil Fuels will sooner than later - RUN OUT !!!
In the meantime, we just plod along, in the vain hope that the magic-golden-bullet will be found.

Eckert wrote: The fossil fuels emit a great deal of harmful gases to produce energy.


That in my mind, is the most relevant statement needing clarification !
And their availability is also limited.

"Also Limited" is the greatest problem I feel and that alone should be the driving force for finding alternatives.

Now when you jive-to-the-tack of "emit a great deal of harmful gases" then we start to need some qualifications, and as we are inferring an environmental harm then we need to isolate the different harms.

Harm --- Hmmmm ! Yes there are those more noxious emissions that cause health problems, but, are you actually referring to that Death-Inducing gas --- Carbon Dioxide -- Oops - I mentioned it -- sorry..

Unfortunately, here, we diverge on thinking.. One school says that CO2 is an environmental hazard and another says that it's an environmental stimulus.

I WILL die without CO2 !!!!!!!!! and mankind can tolerate much higher levels in our breathing air, before it creates a problem.
CO2 is NEVER poisonous and supports life when in combination with normal breathing gasses - CO2 drives my breathing and stimulates all plant-growth It will NEVER poison me, but could suffocate me if inhaled in dramatically large volumes.

The more CO2 in the air, the more the trees will grow..

Some say that Climate Change - has been caused by the RISE in CO2 -- ( yes we will accept CLIMATE CHANGE - as they could not make up their minds if it was Warming or Cooling -- So Change is an acceptable FEAR word and we all KNOW that change is afoot -- but change from WHAT ? Change from what we remember?? ),.

Others say that the CO2 has risen BECAUSE of Climate Change.
Irrespective, the FIRST thing to do is to decide if it matters?
Does climate change EXIST, and is it NEW, and is it IMPORTANT, and is there ANYTHING that you or I can do about it?????

and jointly we need to satisfy the question--
"Does CO2 pose an issue to the environment, and is it something that we need to react to?"

Now if ANYONE really wants to be EMPOWERED then you would have to respect the views of over 31000 high ranking scientists and environmentalists, who have studied the true facts and realised that Climate Change, actually seems to be caused by -- THE SUN

GASP -

[url]http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/Review_Article_HTML.php[url][/url]

So before you go on, go to the url and see what the Petition holds as their collective belief.. If one is not prepared to read the information, then you are clearly one who is not interested in Climate Change.

Eckert wrote: also limited -- But this is not so in the case of renewable sources of energy.


Here we are in complete agreement - Renewable power is the way of the future.. But we do need to be rational and consider the cost of harnessing the constant sources of energy.
By the way - It's NOT really renewable.. It continues to exist..
Rainwater in a tank, is a Renewable Resource... Battery-Power and AC power from PV panels, is a renewable resource....
Sunlight will always be there (whilst-ever the sun shines).. Wind Power will always be there whilst the sun shines... Wave power will be there whilst the wind blows.. and the more the ice melts, the more the oceans that will make the waves ( sorry - Bad Humor ?? )

Sunlight - is not renewable, as mankind cannot reproduce the effect of the SUN, and if it could, then we would not be debating the issue or showing concern for lack of energy.. BUT then the issue is still not the SUN, but how to convert it's energy into a form that can power mankind....

Eckert wrote: Renewable sources of energy like the ocean energy are growing in popularity because of its huge scope.

The problem is that when I tried to construct my wave generator, there was a large uprising, and the people on Bondi Beach complained about tripping over the extension chord.
Eckert wrote:Ocean wave power is found to be so huge that it can power up to 10% of the total energy demand. The ocean wave energy can be captured from the surface waves using point absorbers. It is calculated that only 0.2% of the energy present in ocean has been tapped till date.

Is it 70%.. -- the coverage of the earth by oceans. So if the brains are saying that covering the ocean with wave-generators, or extending our coast-lines with wave generators will save the planet, then I would have to question where the concrete and steel will come from, to build the generators that could generate 10% of total energy demand.

Sorry to be such a kill-joy, but I think that (with a few exceptions, like extreme tidal zones) Wave-power or Tidal-Power, has been dropped as an economical and practical alternative energy source.

Why do so many people complain about my PV panels, because they took so much "World-Energy" to produce, and only me on my own, get the financial benefit. I am so very selfish !!!

How funny it is, that we still seek the unrealistic and most expensive, when the cleanest and most proven power source, and most similar to Sun-Power, continues to be ignored for political reasons..

Buggar the environment -- Just don't mention NUCLEAR POWER

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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby taggertycyclist » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:29 am

Well, that's just like waving a red rag at a bull!

The news yesterday was that Toshiba is actively developing mini-nuclear plants developing 10,000kW, the target markets being the US first, then South-East Asia. And indepedently Hitachi and Mitsubishi are developing water-pressure nuclear plants as well, with capacities up to 600,000kW.

This undoubtedly will satisfy some of the environmentalists who are now calling for widerspread use of nuclear power to overcome that global warming thing. Bugger the consequences of disposing of highly radioactive spent fuel rods and the security problems that are rife within the nuclear industry.

This comes on the back of Toshiba's announcement on Friday that it has developed a fuel cell to recharge mobile phone batteries. Evidently, 3000 will be made available initially, but the cost does seem exhorbitant. The fuel source is methane (so that should address all the do-gooders' claims about pollution from landfill and cow farts).

There is some considerable conjecture that fuel cells will eventually be the way of the future and that we will transition from a carbon-based society to a hydrogen-based one, with the by-product being water instead of carbon dioxide.

But hold on there!!! Don't many scientists believe that the earth's so-called "climate change" is actually being caused by H2O instead of C02?

Get out the popcorn, if you haven't already... this should be a good show.

I should point out that I am moving to solar power and looking at other options simply because of the cost and control factors. I don't like being dictated to by any political movement, more so the greens and their lefty mates, and I have a gut feeling the introduction of an artificial carbon trading scheme will impose costs on energy consumption here in Australia that people never dreamed of, but those costs won't have any significant impact on emissions, and none of the developing countries will follow suit.

The RECs scheme seems to be a case in point.

I agree with the OP that the ocean does provide a wealth of resources if used wisely. I know that some electricity is being generated off the WA coast through wave motion. But like most of these kinds of "alternative" power sources, reliability remains a significant factor -- that is, the wave motion is not always constant, like the wind is not, and insolation is not.
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby Tracker » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:01 am

The news yesterday was that Toshiba is actively developing mini-nuclear plants developing 10,000kW,


I'll take one and the spent fuel can be buried under the vegies, to keep them warm and glowing.

Bugger the consequences of disposing of highly radioactive spent fuel rods

At least it's easier to lock it away, especially if converted to SynRock..
Far easier to lock it away, than trying to sequestrate Carbon-Dioxide.

The fuel source is methane

NOW - we are cookin with gas. A simple plastic hose from where the sun don't shine , and I can talk all day on my mobile phone - Sign me up. I only hope that you don't get system leaks, especially when talking in elevators !

"climate change" is actually being caused by H2O instead of C02?

Why not - IF Co2 changes the thermal properties of the atmosphere, then certainly H2O will also.. BUT - this debate (according to me) is about what is causing the change, not what might be supporting it.
THE SUN.

Oh... Please, will someone open the window .. and turn off that bright light..

LOL - Thanks for the informative comments

More POP-Corn please.. I've settled in for an overnight Trilogy
Last edited by Tracker on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
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Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby zzsstt » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:03 am

I must admit that I get a tad confused when I read about fuel cells being the way of the future. Of course a device that "burns" hydrogen and creates only water is great, but what about the bigger picture? Where does the hydrogen come from?

From the brief research that I have done, it would seem that a high pressure electrolysis unit, generating hydrogen at 5000PSI (price unknown, probably very high), connected to an 8kW solar array (about AU$45K) will generate about 0.5kg of hydrogen per day on average. With current fuel cell performance, that will get you about 50km.

As far as mobile phones go, why on earth does one need a fuel cell? Just buy a solar charger for the phone....

So, what is this solving?

Realistically, anybody in a metro area would be better served (environmentally) with public transport, and arguably the best from would be direct electrically powered trains/trams as these avoid the losses in converting from electricity to hydrogen.

Anybody in a rural area that could not be served by public transport may create less emissions with hydrogen, but the infrastructure required would be huge - if the town is 25km away, it would require a 16kW solar array just to provide the fuel to get the kids to and from school each day.

So realistically it doesn't look like the big picture is very encouraging?

It would, in fact, seem that we are still not "getting it". The fuel cell appears to be a way of trying to lessen the apparent impact of retaining the one person=one car concept, when any objective analysis suggests that such a model is inherently flawed.

The moble phone thing is just plain ridiculous. Generate electricity, convert it to hydrogen (or use methane, whatever), then burn it to generate electricity to charge a battery? Why didn't they just charge the battery to start with? Oh, they wouldn't have made any money selling some idiot a fuel cell.....I see! Solar phone chargers are available now for about AU$70.

I'm starting to get fed up with all this environment nonsense. They told me that my car was bad for the environment, and that buses were much better. So I sold my car and bought a bus, but I can't see how it's helping because it uses far more fuel than the car ever did..
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby taggertycyclist » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:18 am

zzsstt wrote:I'm starting to get fed up with all this environment nonsense. They told me that my car was bad for the environment, and that buses were much better. So I sold my car and bought a bus, but I can't see how it's helping because it uses far more fuel than the car ever did..

You owe me a new computer keyboard now this one's drenched in morning coffee!!!
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby KarenS » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:56 am

Eckert wrote:The fossil fuels emit a great deal of harmful gases to produce energy. And their availability is also limited.


There are some miserable ba****rds in Victoria who would disagree just a little bit - the usual codswallop round here is that our wonderful filthy brown coal will last, at current usage rates, around another 500 or so years, gives or take a decade or two. I suppose it depends on how quickly they can develop a means of reducing it's flammability, so that they can export it to assorted subcontinental and east Asian countries, without it burning the ship on the way... Then it might last for a shorter time ...

If tidal power is so useful, why aren't the Victorian greenies suggesting that Alcoa at Portland use it? The plant there is vast, and is right on the edge of a cliff. The plant should also be covered with PV panels, but I suspect that the sea-mist and salt air may cause problems. Wind, on the other hand, should not be a problem - there is a large windfarm quite close by, and any Victorian who has holidayed on the south-west coast can vouch for the dreaded sou-westerly, which comes from Heard Island, more or less, all the year round...
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby Tracker » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:48 am

KarenS wrote:filthy brown coal will last, at current usage rates, around another 500 or so years


Does it make any real difference if the coal will last 5 or 50 or 500years? The reality is that fossil fuels WILL run out and hence it is the responsibility of our Governments to encourage the development of clean fuels, and clean energy.

If tidal power is so useful, why aren't the Victorian greenies suggesting that Alcoa at Portland use it?


It is so very much easier making the claims of doom and gloom and impending destruction of life as we know it, when it just can't be proved.. It's a no brainer!

It is far more difficult to actually "Justify" the development of astronomically expensive power-technology, like "Wave-Generators", because these greenies will know that it will be THEIR taxes that will be spent on such silly projects that will make so small a difference.

It does not need intelligence to claim that the melting of ice is caused by heating.. Derrrrr !

We can all see the melting of ice in parts of the world, but it is an "Inconvenient Truth" that ice is forming in other parts of the world.
It's an "Inconvenient Truth" that many glaciers have been melting for more years than we have been feverishly burning Fossil Fuels. So can anyone justify a claim that it is CO2 that is causing the problem?

Do we collectively understand what is really happening..?

The majority of Scientists believe that climate change is something that we have no control over, because it IS caused by the SUN, and they do not get a hearing!
In doing so, they are saying - "We can't do anything about it, so we don't need money !"
The opponents however, who claim we are killing the planet, then say - "Give me money to save the world"..

The problem is that those who stand to make money from the contra-view, have the ear of the world.
As humans we have a strange preference to listen to the Disaster Story, rather than the Uplifting Story.
Disaster headlines sell papers..
Being promised to be saved from a perceived pending disaster will cause more to vote for a total lier, than would ever vote for the opponent who claims "there is no problem".

Mr. C.Rudd has undertaken to lead the rush to Copenhagen, but does anyone really know just what that signature WILL do?

Are you aware of the draft plans to create a new-world-order and a new effective world-Government, for those who sign the proposed Copenhagen agreement..
This NEW-GOVERNMENT will reportedly have TOTAL and EVERLASTING control of Member Nations, able to demand actions and payments and taxes. This is all because THEY need the TOTAL power to SAVE-THE-WORLD

If you would like to understand more about what Mr C.Rudd is so committed to commit YOU to then check out this little expose...

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/videos/glenn_beck_interviews_lord_monckton_on_climate_treaty_parts_1_&_2.html

Then surf around the Home site and listen to the other views.
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html

Could it be that Mr. C.Rudd sees a new life after Politics, if he is seen to have been a strong supporter of this new-world-government?

Again, you and I are here because we recognise that things need to change, and we are prepared to do OUR bit.. BUT.... I am not prepared to let the Power-Ambitions of a relatively small minority to destroy MY life.

Please -- Remove the blinkers, one and all, and consider all the arguments.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/enviornment/lord-monckton-talks-about-global-climate-change-treaty_100262835.html

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?hl=en&source=hp&q=lord+monckton++St+Paul&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=tsbkSrPsHIvzkAWLvfi9AQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQqwQwAA#
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby munter » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:36 pm

For reference - here is a link to the wiki for the gentleman who you are citing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe ... _Brenchley
http://renovations08.blogspot.com/ - my energy efficiency blog
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Re: Empowering Lives

Postby wandifred » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:29 pm

Here is an article about a new proposed wave power station to be built off Garden Island south of Perth. It's cost is calculated at 50 million to power at least 3500 homes. That works out to $14,286 per home. That is roughly the same as a solar system which can only power when the sun is out.

What is never mentioned is the maintenance costs as the ocean is a very corrosive environment. I have placed the link below.

http://weekend.inmycommunity.com.au/new ... t/7538514/

Cheers,
Fred
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