No More Blackouts

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No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:58 pm

http://www.energymatters.com.au/deep-cy ... 3_403.html

I know this is a subject a lot of people are interested in , EM have dropped there prices and put together a usable package that can make Blackouts /Brownouts a thing of the past.
There is nothing else like this system on the market , it's truly state of the art!

We have had one of these system installed in our home for 14 months , it only recently after the Perth storms kept us powered for 3 days while everyone around us waited for power to be restored.
There have been many more times it has protected us from huge power surges and temporary blackouts as well as kept our PV system online so we can use the power it's making.

I don't work for EM but I am more than happy to talk to anyone considering this type of setup , either from a technical aspect , installation considerations or usability.

One thing not mentioned is that this unit can also utilize /control a generator in place or together with a PV system , but you will need to specify this at time of purchase.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:20 am

Sorry if I offend, but for $12k it sounds just like a giant UPS. Does that include batteries? 2.4KWh isn't very much.
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Tracker » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:44 pm

.
gully wrote:Sorry if I offend, but for $12k it sounds just like a giant UPS.


Which raises a very good point..
There are a good few 3 to 5 Kw computer UPS's that can be picked up around the trade.
Would not take too much to adapt them for Full-Home use.
Complemented with Solar Panels, would mean a good power supply during sunny days.
Just got to work out the safe interlocking with the grid.
..
.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:00 pm

Tracker wrote:.
gully wrote:Sorry if I offend, but for $12k it sounds just like a giant UPS.


Which raises a very good point..
There are a good few 3 to 5 Kw computer UPS's that can be picked up around the trade.
Would not take too much to adapt them for Full-Home use.
Complemented with Solar Panels, would mean a good power supply during sunny days.
Just got to work out the safe interlocking with the grid.
..
.


UPS's can't be complimented with a grid connected PV system when the power goes out.

The safe and legal interlocking with the grid is the part you can't mess with and why you will never be able to use a standard UPS to do what the Sunny Backup does.

Just for fun try running a 2KW air con even with a 5KW UPS and see what happens :)
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:19 pm

Joey wrote:UPS's can't be complimented with a grid connected PV system when the power goes out.

The safe and legal interlocking with the grid is the part you can't mess with and why you will never be able to use a standard UPS to do what the Sunny Backup does.

Just for fun try running a 2KW air con even with a 5KW UPS and see what happens :)


Joey: The only point which is really correct here is that you can't return power to the grid when the grid power is offline. No product can do this as it's illegal, not even the Sunny Backup, so your point isn't valid.

There's no reason you couldn't use the solar power to charge your UPS system - as long as it's not sending power back to the grid. There are many ways you could do this. It is also perfectly legal to, manually or automatically, have a UPS run a power circuit on your house in the event of power failure.
How do you think mains backup generators work?

Not really trying to flame you joey I just reckon it's a bloody lot of money for what you get.

See http://www.latronics.com.au/pdf/Battery%20BackUp.pdf for an implementation with Latronics LS Backup and Grid-tie system. In this case, the LS Inverter is essentially the UPS - and cost is less than half the cost of the Sunny BACKUP ($4840).

So what if you can't run a 2kw air con unit - all generator-type systems will suffer in the same respect (peak wattage output). I'm sure you've got an eco-friendly 60 watt fan hiding around somewhere if you have bothered to invest in solar =)
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Tracker » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:27 pm

UPS's can't be complimented with a grid connected PV system when the power goes out.


Probably a misinterpretation of the concept.
I have heard of people doing this..

A BIG multi-pole switch in the power box ( Have not thought how many pole but guessing 3p2p )

Position 1 = NORMAL grid connection
Position 2 = ISLAND Power from a ups

This main switch also disconnects the PV Feed-In from the PV output meter and connects it to the normal house grid.
With the house disconnected from the Grid (Island Operation) , the PV system "Sees" the UPS and locks to it.
Naturally you don't try to run a 2HP RAC from your Island Power System. You are in Emergency power mode.

The safe and legal interlocking with the grid is the part you can't mess with and why you will never be able to use a standard UPS to do what the Sunny Backup does.


The inflection is on Inter-Connecting, and I have little doubt that it can be done "Legally" and by a qualified Sparky. The PV power is just a side benefit.

Technically, you could almost devise the whole system using a 100W AC (12Vdc) Inverter, and a "Good" PV Array. .. posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=1011&sid=04d64b8a9ab80edd78f6fe36eba27480# .. You only need a stable AC reference for the PV GCI to lock to. .. .. It simply has to work, if the reference source is within the specs of the GCI.
Naturally, you would have to be careful in shutting everything down before powering up your island system.
AND - with the 100W Inverter, you would have to watch for clouds, that might drop your entire system output.

It is possible - but not totally practical.posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=1011&sid=04d64b8a9ab80edd78f6fe36eba27480#

Obviously, the Sunny Backup would provide the automatic Grid-Sensing and change-over, that with a DIY system, would need a manual switching system to completely isolate the home from the grid.
..
.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:22 am

gully wrote:
Joey wrote:UPS's can't be complimented with a grid connected PV system when the power goes out.

The safe and legal interlocking with the grid is the part you can't mess with and why you will never be able to use a standard UPS to do what the Sunny Backup does.

Just for fun try running a 2KW air con even with a 5KW UPS and see what happens :)


Joey: The only point which is really correct here is that you can't return power to the grid when the grid power is offline. No product can do this as it's illegal, not even the Sunny Backup, so your point isn't valid.

There's no reason you couldn't use the solar power to charge your UPS system - as long as it's not sending power back to the grid. There are many ways you could do this. It is also perfectly legal to, manually or automatically, have a UPS run a power circuit on your house in the event of power failure.
How do you think mains backup generators work?

Not really trying to flame you joey I just reckon it's a bloody lot of money for what you get.

See http://www.latronics.com.au/pdf/Battery%20BackUp.pdf for an implementation with Latronics LS Backup and Grid-tie system. In this case, the LS Inverter is essentially the UPS - and cost is less than half the cost of the Sunny BACKUP ($4840).

So what if you can't run a 2kw air con unit - all generator-type systems will suffer in the same respect (peak wattage output). I'm sure you've got an eco-friendly 60 watt fan hiding around somewhere if you have bothered to invest in solar =)


Gully , I will go through your points one by one , I will categorically state "ALL" my points are correct.

UPS's can't be complimented with a grid connected PV system when the power goes out. This is 100% true

It appears you don't understand how the Sunny Backup works , It is the only system on the market that can utilize an SMA grid connected PV system when the power is off , All other Grid connect inverters switch off when the grid goes down , An SMA Sunny Boy connected the a Sunny Backup will "not " switch off" It remains Sync'd to the "always" Sync'd to the Grid Sunny Backup output which Mirrors the Grid at all times ,, The PV system will remain totally usable to supply all loads , it will maintain the battery bank via the Sunny Back charging and monitoring system , if the loads are less than the PV is producing and the batteries are full the backup can reduce the PV output , or if not needed at all it will place the PV inverter in Standby mode , monitoring the loads and calling on the PV system again when required.
The PV System can also be utilized to it's maximum output in parallel with the backup inverter output because they are always sync'd together , at the same time it can also add a generator , None of these combination's are possible with a UPS , Generator or any other backup inverter , If anyone wishes to challenge this I will explain in detail why.


As to using solar power to charge a UPS , Sure but this is not a Grid connected PV system , it is a battery charger or in reality a Standalone system or UPS that uses batteries via an inverter to produce 240v , in the case of the latronics or Selectronics systems they can use this "stored" energy to feed back to the grid.
This is by far the most inefficient way to grid feed , It is rarely the type of PV system that is installed in residential houses. This type of system can't be used to increase the maximum output of an inverter no matter how big the PV system is.

As to "So What" , We have a 3.2KW RC system , Fridge Freezer and various other things that could be in use at anytime , actually the entire house continues as normal without even noticing a flicker.
The "So What" factor is that without a crystal ball we don't know when there is going to be a blackout so what do you advise we do ? not use anything that can draw big current because if the power fails while we are using them the UPS is going to explode or go into over load protection because the washing machine and fridge turn on at the same time.
Yes all generator type systems suffer the same Peak demand problems , But the Sunny Backup does not! You may consider this system is too expensive and have all sorts of work around's and idea's to achieve the same thing but you are always going to end up with what you pay for.
This is a complete home or business backup system ,that can be remotely controlled from anywhere in the world , linked with a webbox can even notify you of a blackout or any other problem in an instant and can be left unattended.
Manually switching over to a backup system /generator etc is not even a consideration for anything that needs to be left unattended , We go away most weekends and can rest assured that we haven't lost everything in the fridge /freezer , web / mail server , surveillance etc because we weren't home to manually switch things over.


BTW , I paid even more for my system and believe me I researched everything around the world in great depth , one of my big considerations was being able to utilize our 4KW Grid Connect system whether the grid is there or not , there was no other way to achieve what this system does , What it cost for what it does is worth every cent.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:04 am

Tracker wrote:
UPS's can't be complimented with a grid connected PV system when the power goes out.


Probably a misinterpretation of the concept.
I have heard of people doing this..

A BIG multi-pole switch in the power box ( Have not thought how many pole but guessing 3p2p )

Position 1 = NORMAL grid connection
Position 2 = ISLAND Power from a ups

This main switch also disconnects the PV Feed-In from the PV output meter and connects it to the normal house grid.
With the house disconnected from the Grid (Island Operation) , the PV system "Sees" the UPS and locks to it.
Naturally you don't try to run a 2HP RAC from your Island Power System. You are in Emergency power mode.

The safe and legal interlocking with the grid is the part you can't mess with and why you will never be able to use a standard UPS to do what the Sunny Backup does.


The inflection is on Inter-Connecting, and I have little doubt that it can be done "Legally" and by a qualified Sparky. The PV power is just a side benefit.

Technically, you could almost devise the whole system using a 100W AC (12Vdc) Inverter, and a "Good" PV Array. .. posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=1011&sid=04d64b8a9ab80edd78f6fe36eba27480# .. You only need a stable AC reference for the PV GCI to lock to. .. .. It simply has to work, if the reference source is within the specs of the GCI.
Naturally, you would have to be careful in shutting everything down before powering up your island system.
AND - with the 100W Inverter, you would have to watch for clouds, that might drop your entire system output.

It is possible - but not totally practical.posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=1011&sid=04d64b8a9ab80edd78f6fe36eba27480#

Obviously, the Sunny Backup would provide the automatic Grid-Sensing and change-over, that with a DIY system, would need a manual switching system to completely isolate the home from the grid.
..
.


Sorry tracker don't intend to throw a wet blanket over your theory ,

A grid connect inverter needs to be able to output everything it is producing ( except an SMA inverter connected to a Sunny Backup ) in order for it to remain operational.
The grid represents a load to an inverter that allows all the current being produced to flow , This is one of the basic principles of current flow , if there is no load there is no current flow.

If you were to connect a PV inverter to the output of a small inverter or UPS a few things will happen , firstly because the output wave forms are in most cases not what the Grid Inverter is looking for it wont sync , then of course if the total amount of current isn't allowed to flow it will just switch straight off because it is seen as a grid fault.

This is similar to how the outback inverters work , they have an intelligent charger that maintains the batteries while the grid is active and then supplies the loads from the batteries when the grid fails , the output from the outback is pure enough that it will allow a PV inverter to sync to it's output and assist with the loads , if the loads decrease all excess the Grid Connected PV is producing is diverted to the batteries backwards via the inverters output to the charger , the one major problem is that once the batteries are full the outback can't switch off the PV system so it continues to divert all available current to the batteries and left like this starts to boil the batteries.
The only way they overcome this issue is to have a battery voltage / temp sensor that triggers a relay to forcefully disconnect the PV system., the other problem now is if the grid comes back on the PV remains switched off because the batteries are full. , So another relay is connected to the isolator relay that overrides the Battery sensor relay when the grid is active. Quite a messy and complex setup , it does work but even as the techs from outback explained at a conference recently it's not a packaged solution that can be presented to a provider for approval.
They recommend a low voltage PV system via regulator to charge batteries , just like the Latronic and Selectronic systems.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Tracker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:54 am

It appears you don't understand how the Sunny Backup works , It is the only system on the market that can utilize an SMA grid connected PV system when the power is off , All other Grid connect inverters switch off when the grid goes down , An SMA Sunny Boy connected the a Sunny Backup will "not " switch off" It remains Sync'd to the "always" Sync'd to the Grid Sunny Backup output which Mirrors the Grid at all times


I must admit that your description NOW, has me alarmed, Joey.. . .. And I am a bit slow !... . and I am confident that you are a bit tired .. ;)

Just edit the post and we won't remember. LOL :lol:

These words imply that the backup remains CONNECTED to the grid, after grid failure , which it simply cannot do... Must not do.. and I am sure - does not do, or there would be no approval !!!
I hope that you really mean that under failed grid-Power, it disconnects from the GRID, but maintains the "Last Grid parameters" until the GRID returns. .. .. ie . Just like a UPS would.
AND - naturally just works like any other GCI when the Grid is functional.

In other words - Your Sunny-Boy-Backup isolates to an Island operation... . BUT judiciously uses PV power to complement the Battery Supply... :!:

Sorry tracker don't intend to throw a wet blanket over your theory ,


No problem - I do hear your words, but I am talking theoretically. .. .. If I had a PV system running at my house and the power failed, and I switched off the Main-Supply-Switch and everything in the house, and then turned on a 12Vdc-TO-240Vac inverter, that was guaranteed to output 240V Pure Sine Wave, ,, then I would be fairly confident that the PV system (GCI) would sync to that and would then provide the current demanded by appliances/lights as you turned them on.
Conversely, if that 100W inverter was replaced with a 3.5Kw Pure-Sine UPS, then I would expect that provided that I did not have a 2HP Rac running (that's silly), and the house load was BELOW the output level of the UPS, then the PV-GCI would sync to that, and as the GCI always tries to better the "Seen Voltage" then I would suspect that it would supply most of the current to the house, PROVIDED that the UPS remained generating something for the PV-GCI to sync to.
Should the UPS think that it could shut down, then the PV-GCI would naturally drop out.
IF the UPS battery fails, then all is lost.
But if the ups drain is VERY low because the PV-GCI is supplying the bulk of the current, then it might last far a considerable time. ..
.. If one was so keen as to set up such a system, then there is a fair chance that the standard tiny UPS batteries would be replaced with SERIOUS ones.

Again - this is ALL happening whilst the home is totally disconnected from the grid -- PHYSICALLY.

The Sunny-Boy-Backup would do it magically and automatically, but $12000 is an astronomic amount to pay for a 'What-If-Event'.
Unless you have a home business and you are in a Power-Failure-Prone area, under which circumstance, it would be a business asset and would attract a 50% Tax-Rebate and full depreciation etc. etc. :mrgreen:

None of these combination's are possible with a UPS , Generator or any other backup inverter


ANYTHING is possible ! .. .. Sorry

Your system is really quite Wonder Full and Use Full if there is a repeated issue with power.
For the 5 times a year that the lights go out , it's likely an extravagance, in greater Suburbia.
For those 5 times a year, and IF the power is not back in 32.3 Secs, then it becomes practical to implement emergency power procedures, which could include a generator feeding the batteries of the UPS, so ANYTHING is possible in physical practice, and alternatively, if the $$$ are available.

I suppose that what we are talking about is $12000 for the wiz-bang Sunny-Boy-Backup or $3000 for a normal inverter and No emergency power. All quite simple really !
.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:35 pm

An SMA Sunny Boy connected the a Sunny Backup will "not " switch off" It remains Sync'd to the "always" Sync'd to the Grid Sunny Backup output which Mirrors the Grid at all times

This is correct , the output from the Sunny Backup is connected to the house loads so it doesn't switch off when the grid fails.
When the sunny boy is grid feeding it does this via the Sunny Backup Grid control and built in anti islanding , so power is fed back to the gird down the "input" line ( which is connected to the grid )and obviously isolated when the grid fails.

I know you are talking theoretically but you are missing the understanding of how a GCI operate , they simply can't sit there waiting to supply variable loads like a backup inverter or UPS , They either supply everything they are producing or they switch off , so as a GCI cant charge a UPS or normal inverters batteries via their inverters output ( like the Sunny backup does ) there is nowhere to divert the unused power the GCI in producing so it switches off.
GCI's are not designed to supply anything but the constant load the grid presents, they produce what ever the panels are producing not what you want to draw from the GCI's output.

You are still not understanding why I mention a RC aircon , I don't say I go around switching things on when the grid is down just because I can , I am saying that any or all of these things can being running and if a blackout occurs they will continue to run without everything melting down , like would happen with any else that was suddenly presented with these loads.

Yes we are in a bad area for blackouts ,brownouts , power surges , , the Sunny Backup has disconnected the Grid 411 times in the past 12 months due to the above conditions , We don't notice any of them or have to run around switching things over and switching things off , I just get an email telling me of the condition and can look at the logs for the reason.

To me not everything is about money , I wanted a quality total professional solution that could control and do everything .
Every other suggestion is regarding the cost and how this could be done cheaper , if this what people want then the Sunny backup system isn't for them .
This thread is specifically about the Sunny Backup System , not about how much it cost nor was it an invitation to re-invent an already perfect system.
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