No More Blackouts

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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:58 pm

Sorry Joey but you're not accepting others points very well. Cost comes into every decision everyone makes - of course it's relevant! A UPS can be automatically managed and monitored remotely - IT support have been doing this for decades. I agree with Tracker - almost any setup is possible. Yes I agree it sounds like a nice solution, but far too much overkill unless you have bad-quality mains power. It's attractiveness is that it is an all-in-one solution but i'd expect something like this to be half the cost of what it is.
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
gully
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:19 pm

gully wrote:Sorry Joey but you're not accepting others points very well. Cost comes into every decision everyone makes - of course it's relevant! A UPS can be automatically managed and monitored remotely - IT support have been doing this for decades. I agree with Tracker - almost any setup is possible. Yes I agree it sounds like a nice solution, but far too much overkill unless you have bad-quality mains power. It's attractiveness is that it is an all-in-one solution but i'd expect something like this to be half the cost of what it is.


A bigger consideration for me than cost was a complete solution , if I had to pay twice as much I would have , what others consider and can or cant afford is not my concern.
Only SMA have achieved a total solution so far , there is no way this can be disputed.

You can expect anything you like to cost half of what it does , build a system put your name on it then you can make all the claims you like.
The way it stands all you are claiming is that this system costs to much , that has nothing to do with what the system is.
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Tracker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:33 pm

.
they simply can't sit there waiting to supply variable loads like a backup inverter or UPS , They either supply everything they are producing or they switch off ,


You might just have me there.. .. I would not have considered that a GCI would have to either provide ALL or nuffin.
I suppose that is not a parameter that they need to enumerate in the Specs.
If you are correct, then I agree , that my theory does not hold water.. .. So I won't wast time experimenting, will I ?
Thanks for explaining it .

:P
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby franks » Mon May 10, 2010 3:27 pm

For $500 spent, I have 300watt inverter, 120a/h battery and 2 40watt PV panels, gives me aprox 600w/h of mains back up, to keep it legal I installed a change over switch to feed selected GPO in my house.
Its not hot standby, but handy for the odd outages we get sometimes.
99% of the time the battery is on float charge from the PVs, I do at odd times run 12 volt DC loads.
3.04kW Grid Tie system 16 of 190W PVs, Samil 3.3kW
3.8kW PV Stand Alone Off Grid.. 5-8kWHr Per day
24 of 190W PVs
Midnite Classic 150 & Lite MPPT
8 of 6V 600 AH flooded cells (24 volt 1200 AH)
Outback VFX3024E Inverter Charger
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Mon May 10, 2010 9:35 pm

franks wrote:Its not hot standby, but handy for the odd outages we get sometimes.
99% of the time the battery is on float charge from the PVs, I do at odd times run 12 volt DC loads.


Nice job - i'm interested in finding out more about timed circuit breakers and auto-transfer switches, there's not much documentation around about them - many sparkies don't know much about them either - they're more used in commercial enviroments.

RE: 12v loads - I wonder if houses in the future will have 12v DC outlets or wiring. Main problem is loss / copper size needed to maintain current, but with that many transformers around which all have phantom loads, it may be viable.
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
gully
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Mon May 10, 2010 9:44 pm

gully wrote:
franks wrote:Its not hot standby, but handy for the odd outages we get sometimes.
99% of the time the battery is on float charge from the PVs, I do at odd times run 12 volt DC loads.


Nice job - i'm interested in finding out more about timed circuit breakers and auto-transfer switches, there's not much documentation around about them - many sparkies don't know much about them either - they're more used in commercial enviroments.

RE: 12v loads - I wonder if houses in the future will have 12v DC outlets or wiring. Main problem is loss / copper size needed to maintain current, but with that many transformers around which all have phantom loads, it may be viable.


Latronics make a nice packaged unit that many people use , http://www.latronics.com.au/ACTransferSwitch.php
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Tue May 11, 2010 10:35 am

Yeah this is nice ($426) but no way to control it via timer. I'm more interested in using a UPS as an auto-transfer switch, as it has the circuitry for this (amperage varies depends on UPS rating) and a battery backup all in one. Ideally running this with a timer to charge on off-peak rates. Anyone got some cheap AGM batteries for sale?
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
gully
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Mon May 24, 2010 10:52 am

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Regardless of the SunnyBoy's ability to utilise battery backup to synch and run its inverter it is illegal for a GRID CONNECTED invertor to do so, even if you plan to manually switch your house off the grid, this is called "anti-islanding" and most utilities test for this feature, (and it is detectable by the new smart meters) and defect the customers installation and lock it off until modified.

Stand-By deisel generation or battery UPS "essential" services circuits require either manual transfer and start up after the local isolation through a castle key interlock isolation switch or approved and tested reverse flow protection equipment and remote trip circuit breakers to be fitted, this is where the $12k is coming from, not the batteries.

It seems an overkill for the occasional and short duration outage suffered by most customers? (Victorian statewide average for unplanned outages is less than 100 minutes - ie a total of 1 hour and 40 minutes agreggate for the year for each customer- not each event), easier to put in a UPS/batteries and some dedicated DC lighting circuits?

regards

Sijon
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Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Mon May 24, 2010 11:15 am

I think you've misunderstood the discussion - the topic is how to disconnect from the grid and maintain power in your house (eg. via batteries or PV). I don't see how once you are disconnected from the grid any system can be classed as anti-islanding as you are not feeding anything back through the meter.

Check your facts, and refer to the Latronics website if you believe it is an illegal setup!

Sojin - you seem like a passionate person, please just keep an open mind in these forums.
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
gully
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Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:05 pm

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Mon May 24, 2010 1:28 pm

gully wrote:I think you've misunderstood the discussion - the topic is how to disconnect from the grid and maintain power in your house (eg. via batteries or PV). I don't see how once you are disconnected from the grid any system can be classed as anti-islanding as you are not feeding anything back through the meter.

Check your facts, and refer to the Latronics website if you believe it is an illegal setup!

Sojin - you seem like a passionate person, please just keep an open mind in these forums.


gully,

I think I do understand the discussion, joey previously promoted the SMS inverter using batteries and operating in an island mode during a grid blackout, and there was a discussion over the merits of a UPS and inverter against such an outcome or the ability for other inverters to achieve the same.

There are many remote area power supplies and DC operated appliances that have nothing to do with the grid or wiring regulations or network connection standards.

The proposal however seems to be to operate a grid connected inverter PV system during a blackout by isolating the main switch - that is what "islanding" is, and a standard approved inverter would need to have its anti-islanding configuration over ridden!

I do check my facts as you might know from other posts, and have worked in this area specifically in my 30 years of Electrical Engineering and power industry roles.

I'm not sure how or where I am considered to have named the Latronics equipment as being illegal, I was referring to the installation or modification of a AS4777 compliant inverter to switch off from the Grid during an outage, and "ISLAND".

The Latronics Edge inverter is appears to be a legal unit that has "anti-islanding" features.

If you are talking about Latronics AC automatic switch this is not evidenced to fully comply with AS3010.1 but is claimed to be compliant with AS3100 and AS3000, and has a transfer speed of 20ms and voltage detection circuits.

Its use in any particular state may not be legal but I cant comment on that as I dont know it specifically?

What I am talking about being illegal to install a grid connected inverter compliant with AS4777 with anti-islanding and then modify it to be operating in an "islanding" form with remote area batteries or even just the PV panel as its power source, regardless of using the main switch manually or using an Latronics auto transfer switch.

Such Alternate power supply systems, if installed in premises connected to the grid, are required to be approved on a per installation basis, not simply based on the manufacturers product brochure.

Electricity is a dangerous product which the industry usually install into domestic homes with a high level of safety, however that is achieved by the use of standards and rules, and by ensuring we all comply with them, I'm sorry if I seem to be passionate about that.

It is quite feasible to install a system to ride through blackouts, but with the inconvenience for most customers down the east coast being under 2 hours of unplanned outage a year in total, $12k seems very expensive, but if you have the money, and do it safely and with specific installation approval so be it?

For an installation to be approved it would require automatic transfer and automatic control of the inverters anti-islanding, a manual system relying on the owner to isolate the main switch ,dis-able the anti-islanding runs the risk of the anti-islanding being left dis-abled. A future unplanned outage when the owner is not home will see the inverter island but with the main switch closed, risking generation into the grid in its fault situation. - The exact reason why the unit is installed and tested to be anti-islanding in the first place.

A dedicated DC supply and load system is one alternative, but the proposal for a change over switch to power dedicated AC powerpoints from the PV and inverter still does not comply with AS3000 wiring rules, the state based Service and Installation Rules, AS4777 and would still require the inverters anti-islanding function to be turned off.

The standards, wiring and service/installation rules that cover this are all in the public domain, I have'nt bothered to insert the links here as I assume others should know where to find them?

If above is not what is being discussed, or relevent to the topic, or factual, then I stand to be corrected?




Regards

Sojin
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