Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby wappinghigh » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:34 pm

Thanks for the info everyone. :D
I would love to jump on board and use one of these. But I'm sorry, at $45,000 it just doesn't add up...
Gas cost, and the time value of money cost aside, it doesn't make sense.
The 45K basically includes a 12-15K per year maintenance cost (which is ongoing after 3 years)

So lets say for argument sake the "running" cost of this device (Again lets leave out the gas and other expenses for now), after an initial 15K, is $15,000 per year. To produce 2KW/hr

My power bill (yes it's a big one :oops: ) is around $5,000 per year or 6-7 KW/hr of use. So I'd need 3 of these. Which for me is a "cost of green power manufacturer" of $45,000 per year

So basically what I'm saying is to use this device and help the planet (which I want to do) will cost me 10x as much as say opting for some other sort of green energy direct from my power company.

It is simply not feasible, right now. Why should the average "Jo" "subsidise" this technology whilst we wait for it to become more mainstream? This is up to government. The cost has to fall 10 fold before it makes any sense.

This is very disappointing, because the whole concept is fantastic.

At $10,000 and no ongoing running costs (like solar) I sure would consider "doing my bit". But at this price. I'm sorry. It just doesn't gel...
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby karlajensen » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:06 pm

Ahh

dont need a blue gen, technology has already been surpassed by thishttp://www.craftholdings.com.au/products.html

I saw the box at the Energising South East Asia conference -lots of alarm bells ringing when I read the literature.

Looks like rainwater in and heaps of free power out. -Cold fusion perhaps?
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby munter » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:21 pm

Is it just me or is that voltmaster website a little low on detail about what their product actually does?

If I guess I would say it looks like some kind of electrolysis and fuel cell equipment. Perhaps it is intended as a form of energy storage and release? The website trumps the low water consumption but makes no mention of the power input requirements which I would have thought is a key piece of information. Nor is there any figure for round-trip efficiency (ie power out divided by power in) which would be useful to know if it is indeed a power storage device.

As you say, alarm bells are ringing about this one.
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:51 pm

Alarm bells ringing? My BS detector is off the scale!

From the website:
>All you need is water
>There is no requirement for diesel, petrol, coal, gas, and the like as the fuel used is water.

Anyone who calls water a fuel is living in lala land.

Producing H2 from electrolysis is very inefficient, even when done at high temperature/pressure, which improves the efficiency somewhat.
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby karlajensen » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:59 pm

Gordon dont be too hasty
Cold fusion is a reality isn't it? :o :lol:

I sussed out the BluGen carefully but Cost / KW/hr generated being 10x that of grid power its tough to see it taking off any time soon.

Why do the stacks need replacement -at great expense?
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby Bush_Magpie » Fri May 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Hi Guys,

At present there is modified diesel engines running a couple megawatts per hour from 22 drill holes into an old rubbish tips around. There running a methanol type injection system.
Can the fuel cells be adapted to run on any type fuel other than LPG, natural gas or petrol?
This would certainly cure 2 problems, poisoning of ground water without creating CO2 and using our exsting rubbish sites for a useful purpose.
Whats your comments?
I presume you read the article on the new Honda civic ( about 400 units) that is on lease and not for sale.
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby AskGerbil » Sat May 14, 2011 2:56 pm

Bush_Magpie wrote:Hi Guys,

At present there is modified diesel engines running a couple megawatts per hour from 22 drill holes into an old rubbish tips around. There running a methanol type injection system.
Can the fuel cells be adapted to run on any type fuel other than LPG, natural gas or petrol?
This would certainly cure 2 problems, poisoning of ground water without creating CO2 and using our existing rubbish sites for a useful purpose.
Whats your comments?
I presume you read the article on the new Honda civic ( about 400 units) that is on lease and not for sale.


See this web site for some details:
Clean Energy Council | Eastern Creek II - Landfill Gas Project http://goo.gl/dFkhG
Eastern Creek - Landfill Gas Project wrote:Landfill gas, (primarily a mixture of methane and carbon dioxide), has a typical global warming potential of about eight times that of carbon dioxide. Capturing what would otherwise be a fugitive emission and converting it to electricity results in greenhouse emission reductions of approximately 80,000 tonnes of CO2 per annum.

Fuel is supplied by landfill from the Eastern Creek site ... New plant is expected to produce an additional 20 GWh of electricity per annum. All output is sold to Ergon Energy under a long-term agreement.

The generator is accredited under the MRET Scheme and the NSW Retailer Greenhouse Benchmarks Scheme.


Natural gas is mostly methane. Landfill gas (and biogas) is a mixture of methane plus carbon dioxide.
Some natural-gas fuel cells can tolerate large quantities of CO2 mixed with the methane fuel.
Others require pipeline quality methane (depends on the design details).
Many companies supply equipment to filter landfill gas to produce pipeline-quality "Bio Natural Gas".

See
"Why You Need to Pay Attention To Bio Natural Gas http://t.co/3Mavw81 - Fast-track replacement of fossil energy with renewable"
and "Sustainable Energy - http://tinyurl.com/2ecbj8q "
for more information.
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby AskGerbil » Mon May 16, 2011 4:55 pm

The BlueGen high efficiency and low emission gas-to-electricity fuel cell generator today won the 2010-11 CEO Award for innovation and the Design for a Sustainable Future award - http://goo.gl/5Ctt6
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Mon May 16, 2011 5:28 pm

I wonder what the chances of them making a 200W unit for one tenth the cost? Off-gridders don't use 48kWh/day and in the huge majority of cases would have no use for a unit this size. However, a 200W unit for $4500 to charge batteries in cloudy weather, assuming the fuel cost (which would probably be bottled gas) to run it, and ongoing maintenance, isn't too high, might be quite attractive to many who are not connected to the grid. It would certainly allow the use of a smaller battery bank, which is the main ongoing cost of living off-grid. I guess "how well does the purchase and running/maintenance cost stack up against a small gas powered internal combustion engine generator?" is the question.
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Re: Fuel Cells - A Big Future and Better than a Battery

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:02 pm

It seems Ceramic Fuel Cells, makers of BlueGen, are packing up and moving to Germany-
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/ceramic ... rope-47229
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