GAS UP 17% - Buggar

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GAS UP 17% - Buggar

Postby Tracker » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:25 pm

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Well there you go..

Town gas up 17% - Are we surprised? (over three years)

Gas has definitely NOT gone up in price, but as a source of energy, it is all relative, and electricity will go up 10% per year for the next 10 years, so gas will follow.

What GAS-Infrastructure do they need to replace?
None? ... .. But - with the advent of Gas-Fired Power plants, there will be more demand for the limited resource.
Perhaps we should go to China and pick up LPG at the contract rates they have.

That makes it one more reason to disconnecting from town gas.. High cost AND higher Service Costs !

Thank you Mr C. Rudd and Kristina Konartist..

Who knows how we can build an effective Phase-Change Solar-Heat-Storage system?


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Re: GAS UP 17% - Buggar

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:39 pm

Tracker wrote:.
Who knows how we can build an effective Phase-Change Solar-Heat-Storage system?


I've just ordered 25kg of palm wax (enviromentally responsible, non GM palm wax) for a Phase-change heat storage/exchanger system. It will ensure that in the event of over a week of overcast wet winter weather, I'll still have hot water available, since I dont run gas or electric boost in the SHWS. The heat will come from the wet back stove, but it could be just as easily heated with an electric element or heat pump at off peak rates, which I suspect is what you have in mind.
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Re: GAS UP 17% - Buggar

Postby Tracker » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:22 pm

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Gordon-Loomberah wrote:The heat will come from the wet back stove,


BUT - with a wetback, does that not imply that you have the hot water anyway, without any devious heat-storage means like phase-change wax??

How will you be using the wax, and how EXTRA heat can you store by using the Phase-Change medium.
Is the WAX, just being used as a thermal mas medium, or as part of the heat transfer process. ie. Pumped through an exchanger.. I presume just as a thermal mass

I recall someone who built a place with massive stainless water tanks and DIY insulation, all solar heated.
That's the other extreme, but one where SPACE is the serious pre-requisite.

Did you see the New-Inventors (this week - google it) and the Thermal exchange system that a couple developed. They would not let on what the storage/transfer medium was.
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Re: GAS UP 17% - Buggar

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:48 am

Tracker wrote:BUT - with a wetback, does that not imply that you have the hot water anyway, without any devious heat-storage means like phase-change wax??


Yes, there is hot water, but its in the minimal pressure hydronics system, not the 250kPa hot water system for showers etc. You cant run high pressure through the wet back.

How will you be using the wax, and how EXTRA heat can you store by using the Phase-Change medium.
Is the WAX, just being used as a thermal mas medium, or as part of the heat transfer process. ie. Pumped through an exchanger.. I presume just as a thermal mass


The wax is not really being used as thermal mass, it would make no sense pay $100 for it when water is free! :lol: Water has nearly twice the specific heat capacity of the wax and is economically the best substance to use on either a weight or volume basis as a thermal mass generally, if you dont require lots of energy relased at a near constant temperature. Much better than any metal, earth, concrete etc for living areas. I think phase change materials that operate around living temperatures are probaby available these days, but are no doubt vastly more expensive than water.

The large amount of energy stored/released during its phase change is what I want it for. The wax melts around 58-60C and releases about the same energy as cooling an equal mass of water through ~50C, (~210J/g), but at ~constant temperature, ideal for the tempering valve inlet. Similarly, (but cooling instead of heating) only a relatively small amount of ice is needed to cool a glass of water.

For temperatures above and below the MP of the wax, it will only heat a bit over half an equal mass of water by the same amount, but the total energy it can store is a bit greater than what water can store for the range 0-100C thanks to its latent heat of fusion and useful MP for my purposes. Water will be incorporated into the exchanger to add some thermal mass, and perhaps help with conduction ( I dont know how wax compares with water conductivity-wise). I have a few ideas on the best way to ensure good conductivity between the wax and the hot water for the shower, but haven't settled on the exact layout of it yet.

Did you see the New-Inventors (this week - google it) and the Thermal exchange system that a couple developed. They would not let on what the storage/transfer medium was.


I missed it, but will have a look on iview, thanks for the tip :)
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GAS UP 17% - Buggar

Postby Tracker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:09 am

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I was wondering how you might use wax?
I had images of pumping Hot-Wax and it's cooling in pipes posting.php?mode=reply&f=19&t=1019&sid=2fe13337154ea4f4aa1c2d4e0a5c092d#, and the alternate of a mass of wax and pipe work as a heat exchanger, and how the wax might locally solidify and then insulate.
I AM NO CHEMIST, so have less than basic "Chem 101" experience, so what would I know?
I would have imagined that the thermal conductivity of wax would make it a good insulator (when solid)

I keep wondering ? I note a massive Pool-Heater Heat-Pump heat-exchanger (Stainless Steel) in a customers back yard.
Long since BER'ed from the compressor failure, but the exchanger sits there bright and shiny and I look and wonder what I could make from it.
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No wonder, the wives get tired of us dreaming of ways of doing dumb things like Melting Wax and pumping water under the backyard, and banks of old batteries, and turning of the freezers off from 2 to 8pm etc. etc.. posting.php?mode=reply&f=19&t=1019&sid=2fe13337154ea4f4aa1c2d4e0a5c092d#
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Re: GAS UP 17% - Buggar

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:32 am

Tracker wrote:.
I was wondering how you might use wax?


big container of it with several alternating heat exchangers (water to shower, and water from wet back) immersed in the wax and/or the extra water I'm adding to it.

I would have imagined that the thermal conductivity of wax would make it a good insulator (when solid)


quite possibly, but water is also a reasonable insulator! I havent found any information on the conductivity of palm wax, but I do know I'll be needing lots of metal to wax/water surface area. Keep in mind that the wet back will always be running, adding heat to the exchanger system, under the circumstances that the heat might be needed for the shower hot water. The shower water wont always be going through the heat exchanger though, I'll just plumb it so that I can divert it through there if needed with a couple of ball valves.
The exchanger wil be positioned under the house so it can add a bit of heat to the composting toilet tank in winter too.

I keep wondering ? I note a massive Pool-Heater Heat-Pump heat-exchanger (Stainless Steel) in a customers back yard.


What is their address, and when are they away from home? :lol: but yes, thats the sort of thing I'll be using.
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