Wind Gen/alt connections

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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby jaahn » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:39 pm

Hi JUles :)
I believe Harry is referring to the solar cells(panels) not the battery cells. :?:
Harry you seem to be sorting it out a bit at a time. ;)
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby jules » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:51 pm

Ah, thanks jaahn :?
Primary system: .8KW Trina panels; Plasmatronics PL40; 1,000Ah VRLA 12X2V battery bank; 1.7KW Selectronic inverter. Off grid for 30 years.

Spares; 5 x 12V, 1,000 Ah batteries plus a couple of regulators
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby harrydiculous » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:48 am

I have now transferred the batteries from the shed to a new, purpose built facility adjacent ;) .

ImageNew shed by jibbonpoint, on Flickr

Imageinshed con by jibbonpoint, on Flickr

1) I mentioned earlier that it was tripping out when operating Washing Machine. You will notice from the second shot that there are now three cables running from the inverter to the batteries. Two of similar size were supplied with the Inverter. I measured them at 15.9mm^2 each. The specs on the Inverter state that their 3000 watt unit needs cables of 66mm^2. This one is 3.5 kw. Well under their own spec. Made worse by, I understand, two cables together requires a 20% discount on power. Anyway, I added the third cable which
is 50mm^2 and I've had no problem since.

I have ordered 83mm^2 cable to replace the three seen here.

2) The common garden variety spade connection. There seems to be a restriction where the electrons are squeezed just prior to the attachment to the Battery/Inverter. I Haven't been able to see anything that lessens my concern on the net so I was thinking about machining up a set designed to avoid this.

(My background is mechanical. there's some things in electrical engineering that's counter intuitive, like electrons flowing in two directions through the same wire.)

3) I was thinking about fabrication a Bus Bar. A straight through piece of copper rod about 10mm square from the battery terminal, through the wall, then a right angle return to which connections could be made. Is possible? :geek:

4) And finally, a switch to isolate the + or - inverter from the Battery. The caravan type unit seems a bit inadequate. Probably a further constriction. Looking around, I can't seem to find anything.

I still haven't been able to solve the RF problem, but our Lady that shares my house & life has found that the station she likes also transmits on FM band. Pressure off (for now.... ;) )

Thanks again.

(I noticed that the relevant certificate hasn't been renewed for this site. I hope its all OK. I did see the recent thread where this was mentioned.)
3kW on grid. Solar River PV Grid Tied inverter 3000TL. Rene Solar Panels 12 x 250. Solar Hot Water. 960 watt Solar off grid with 3500 watt inverter. 4 x 100 amp/h batteries.
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby jaahn » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:21 am

Hi Harry, :)
Looks like you are moving foward. This forum is languishing for lack of a sponsor ! who knows what will happen to it ?
You must be careful with the insulation and safety of the 240 AC voltage. It will kill you just as well as the mains ! :shock: It is hard to see what is there in the photos.
Yes you can make copper bus bars for your low voltage DC. I have worked on older DC installations with bus bars carrying the current through the system. Usually copper flat bar perhaps 25mm x 3mm or thicker depending on the amps. They were supported with bakelite boards holding the switches and meters. A bit higher voltage than you are using. But with multi cabinets the main bus bars ran along through the length of them with each individual control cabinets having feeder bars bolted to the main ones. All very organised and easy to follow. THey are used in all cabinet installations for AC too.
Look at these for ideas. https://www.shutterstock.com/search/busbar?studio=1
Your DC should be fused to prevent shorts causing fires etc. Or breakers.
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby jaahn » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:30 am

Harry :)
I could not edit my post, the function was not available ? :shock:
You must be very careful with bare bus bars. The power must be off to work near them with any sort of metal tools. So having a covering or shield of insulating sheet of some sort is a good idea to prevent accidental contact or things falling on them etc. Having circuit breakers with a manual trip is easy and effective.
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby davidg » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:04 pm

harrydiculous wrote:I have now transferred the batteries from the shed to a new, purpose built facility adjacent ;) .

You need to protect the battery cables from the shed sheet metal the same goes for any STD electrical cable going through sheet metal, with a bushing, conduit or similar.

Using
If it's 150A 24Vdc 3.5kW unit 35mm2 for upto 2m is perfectly fine (2% Voltage Drop) higher VD smaller cable
If it's 300A 12Vdc 3.5kW unit 120mm2 for upto 2m is perfectly fine (2% Voltage Drop) higher VD smaller cable
Higher VD means more heat generated in the cable because it's such a low voltage being used the % becomes very important.

Options use welding wire which is available in metric sizes or use XPLE from electrical wholesalers but it is somewhat stiff (I use this, it has a pretty high temp rating 110C), use proper crimp lugs and ideally crimp them on.

harrydiculous wrote:I understand, two cables together requires a 20% discount on power.

Poppy cock, mm2 area is the same regardless, although it's certainly preferable that all cables in parallel are the same mm2 size so that the VD is the same in each one and for battery cable to inverter cable they are the same length.

harrydiculous wrote:The common garden variety spade connection. There seems to be a restriction where the electrons are squeezed just prior to the attachment to the Battery/Inverter.

A spade type connector typically offers a high resistance point for large currents which is highly likely to become hot the higher the current the hotter it gets. The longer it has sustain high current the hotter it will become and faster it will fail.

harrydiculous wrote:there's some things in electrical engineering that's counter intuitive, like electrons flowing in two directions through the same wire

I'll stick to DC for the moment. Not really the direction the elections flow represent which direction the power is flowing, for instance in relation to the battery/batteries current will either flow into or out of the batteries it will not do both at the sametime.

harrydiculous wrote:And finally, a switch to isolate the + or - inverter from the Battery.

Both cables should be able to be isolated and fused. Look for a Fuse Switch or a Fuse isolator that uses at least 2 x ceramic HRC fuses in it or a high current DC Circuit Breaker ignore ELV units, for instance use either say a 400VDC CB or Fuse Switch rating 160A or for 12V then 250A, it's highly unlikely looking at the small size of the batteries you could sustain any serious currents for any lengthy period of time.

Heres a 160A on Aliexpress that will suit for 24VDC
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HR17B-3 ... 4297f16429


harrydiculous wrote:(I noticed that the relevant certificate hasn't been renewed for this site. I hope its all OK. I did see the recent thread where this was mentioned.)

Looks like it's unlikely to happen unfortunately.
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby harrydiculous » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:24 am

Had trouble logging in. If the forum drops away, thanks for all the help.

I won't be doing anything on the 240 volt side without the assistance of a licensed electrician. I'm just running leads at the moment but I would like to hardwire shortly.

The system is 12 volt. If I get rid of this inverter, I'd go 24 volt. The solar banks are now 3 banks of six panels. The banks are in series of two & joined in parallel in accordance with Gordon's advice.

Given away the Bus Bar idea.

I've decided to draw up & machine more effective connectors. I'll post on here when they are done.

Curses; I've bought 83mm^2 cable. The distance will be 1m from the - & about 600 mm from the +ve. A bit premature. Maybe I can double it. I've got 3000mm).

To be frank, this inverter doesn't cause much confidence, innacurate voltage readings, (say 252+ when it's 240 v out. It seems to give higher input readings as well, leading to the alarm sounding & cutting off supply. I've altered the setting on the VR to compensate.)

Should the cabling between the batteries be the same?

Batteries are 4 x 100 amp/hr Lead Acid.

(I do fancy your Hybrid 3000 watt Inverter, Dadidg.)
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby davidg » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:00 pm

harrydiculous wrote:I won't be doing anything on the 240 volt side without the assistance of a licensed electrician. I'm just running leads at the moment but I would like to hardwire shortly.

Everything mentioned was aimed the ELV DC side of things.

harrydiculous wrote:Curses; I've bought 83mm^2 cable. The distance will be 1m from the - & about 600 mm from the +ve. A bit premature. Maybe I can double it. I've got 3000mm).

Yes you can double and put in parallel on both + & -

harrydiculous wrote:To be frank, this inverter doesn't cause much confidence, innacurate voltage readings, (say 252+ when it's 240 v out. It seems to give higher input readings as well, leading to the alarm sounding & cutting off supply. I've altered the setting on the VR to compensate.)

Is a pure sine wave inverter? if not maybe you should consider that it might not be a good choice. #just saying

harrydiculous wrote:Should the cabling between the batteries be the same?

Ideally yes

harrydiculous wrote:Batteries are 4 x 100 amp/hr Lead Acid.

proper deep cycle or "car type batteries"

harrydiculous wrote:(I do fancy your Hybrid 3000 watt Inverter, Dadidg.)

??? .................. My main Selectronic inverter is 7.5kW continuous (SPMC-482AU Series II) with other stuff added. :)
SPS Standalone Power System/Hybrid specialist - Store the Sun!
SELECTRONIC SPMC482-AU, 8.2kW's of Arrays
Selectronic Certified AC-Coupled Fronius 8.2kW Inverter
1900Ah 48V Bank

An OTT Genset for a house.
PVOutput Stats

Sparkys light up your life :)
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby harrydiculous » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:38 am

davidg wrote:
harrydiculous wrote:I won't be doing anything on the 240 volt side without the assistance of a licensed electrician. I'm just running leads at the moment but I would like to hardwire shortly.

Everything mentioned was aimed the ELV DC side of things.

Yep. Just mentioning to Jaahn.

harrydiculous wrote:Curses; I've bought 83mm^2 cable. The distance will be 1m from the - & about 600 mm from the +ve. A bit premature. Maybe I can double it. I've got 3000mm).

Yes you can double and put in parallel on both + & -

Thanks

harrydiculous wrote:To be frank, this inverter doesn't cause much confidence, innacurate voltage readings, (say 252+ when it's 240 v out. It seems to give higher input readings as well, leading to the alarm sounding & cutting off supply. I've altered the setting on the VR to compensate.)

Is a pure sine wave inverter? if not maybe you should consider that it might not be a good choice. #just saying
I did check it with an Oscilloscope (Chinese). & Checked oscilloscope with grid power. :D

harrydiculous wrote:Should the cabling between the batteries be the same?

Ideally yes

harrydiculous wrote:Batteries are 4 x 100 amp/hr Lead Acid.

proper deep cycle or "car type batteries"

Deep Cycle Century N70T.

harrydiculous wrote:(I do fancy your Hybrid 3000 watt Inverter, Dadidg.)

??? .................. My main Selectronic inverter is 7.5kW continuous (SPMC-482AU Series II) with other stuff added. :)


https://www.ebay.com.au/i/391488049470?chn=ps

This was the beast. I got some idea that you may have represented them... :?
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Re: Wind Gen/alt connections

Postby davidg » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:44 am

Selectronic, no I don't work for the company never have. I do supply and or install them from time to time, I do other trouble shooting periodically as well, but I also have supplied and installed other brands as well. I just happen to find that in general they one of the best products I've had the pleasure of using, supplying and installing.

N70T could not find a temp compensation parameter, but charge should be not more 0.1 of the C20 100AH rating so for 4 X of them in parallel that would be a max of 40amps peak at a maximum voltage of not more than 14.4VDC, also apparently the float voltage. How many cycles you get is dependent on how far you discharge them. I'd suggest at a DOD of 50% you may see say 4 years which is pure guess as I could not find cycle depth to life graph readily.

To give you an idea let's use a C10 rated 400ah cell C10 discharging rating (2V nominal) and have 6 of them in series, each one of good brand will weigh about 32kgs X 6 of them = 192kgs to make the 12v however the artificial life cycle testing at 50% DOD for them suggests 7500 cycles assuming one cycle per day that's nearly 21 years. Life cycle testing assumes that EOL capacity is at 80% of original capacity when they were new. This not what is being used for Lithium cells BTW, several manufacturers have come up with something quite different that tends use a much lower capacity for EOL.
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Selectronic Certified AC-Coupled Fronius 8.2kW Inverter
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An OTT Genset for a house.
PVOutput Stats

Sparkys light up your life :)
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