VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Panther » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:09 pm

70% of homes will have one??? I doubt it. I certainly won't. I reckon I know about 70 people and I haven't heard of anyone that has bought one. Is Rayza 13 an agent for these things? Wonder how much profit there is in them?
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby franks » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:34 am

I smell a Troll Fanboi :?:
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby koolau » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:12 pm

I think we can say that this device will reduce power consumption, the question is how much. That depends on the mix of the appliances, which in nature could be a combination resistive, constant current and constant power devices. Another advantage could be a reduced failure rate of electronic devices (TVs, computers) where a mains-side switching power supply is used. Here the mains voltage gets rectified to produce a DC voltage. In case of a 250V ac supply line, that would be 250x1.41~350VDC. In case of a 220V ac line it would be arond 310VDC. Though the current would increase to maintain constant power, the reduced voltage would improve the reliabilty of the high voltage components (switching transistor, caps).
Would I buy a VPhase? probable not.
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Tracker » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:52 pm

koolau wrote:Another advantage could be a reduced failure rate of electronic devices (TVs, computers) where a mains-side switching power supply is used.

Is that really the case..?
Most all devices these days are designed to run from 110 to 260V, and they simply produce their operating DC voltage, from whatever AC voltage is present.
Items that operate FROM the existing voltage directly, would surely be the most affected, because higher voltage = Higher power..

Who knows about Constant Voltage Transformers.. I used to have one running an electronics-test-bench, to remove non-linearity, caused by mains voltages..

Surely, we really just need a constant AC supply and be done with it.
..
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby koolau » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:14 pm

Constant voltage transformers are fine, they are just big and heavy. They wouldn't fit in a standard meter box. For an average household you would need a 2kW-3kW transformer
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Tracker » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:43 pm

Rayza13 wrote:..... The ignorance which has allowed the solar industry to thrive on large promises, is the same ignorance which doubts this simple step down device. My prediction is that 70% of homes will have one of these devices installed within the next 10 years. The other 30% will just be poorer for not having one....... The UK have gone large with this device.......

Going back to this old thread conjures up some speculation... A great many of the Solar Systems installed, were done by Electricians happy to jump on the band wagon...kill-em while you can... and
I think that your percentages may be right but for the wrong things... 70% will have Solar Power, and 30% will be poorer, with their VPhase to keep them warm.. :oops: ..
and as for ".. The UK have gone large with this device..", the fact that their CHOICE lists the VPhase as a Must-Not-Have product, suggests that either you are wrong, or or the Poms have lost it totally, with all their cruddy weather.. :o
Rayza13 wrote:Ok, so what your trying to tell me is that if a home is running one to two ac's, 20 to 30 halogen downlights, washer, dryer, fridge, freezer, tv's and a multitude of other stuff, this device will not bring considerable saving?

Don't forget that this device ONLY works, up to a set consumption rate.. So if you are saying that having ALL those devices on will result in considerable power savings, then you need to alter your sales-pitch
The VPhase only works up to a set current..
""Maximum current in active mode: 20Amp and in BYPASS mode: 80Amp ""

So, when you exceed that 20Amp, ALL BENEFIT is lost.. 20Amp... 4800W... One GPO Cct.. One Hot-Water system..
Really not as useful as it sounds (if it actually worked)... Turn on two hot plates and the VPhase is dead
..
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby zzsstt » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:50 pm

koolau wrote:I think we can say that this device will reduce power consumption, the question is how much.


I'm sure the device would pay for itself in 20 or 30 years, if it lasted that long!

koolau wrote: Another advantage could be a reduced failure rate of electronic devices (TVs, computers) where a mains-side switching power supply is used. Here the mains voltage gets rectified to produce a DC voltage.


The only components that might be impacted by the high AC voltage in this scenario are the first stage rectifier and DC HF switching components. They, of course, were probably designed to deal with anything they are likely to see.... As the life expectancy of most electronics these days is only a few years (they tend to become obsolete rather than fail), and switch mode power supplies are very cheap, even if this were a real issue I don't think it would justify the cost of the V-Scam!

koolau wrote:Would I buy a VPhase? probable not.


Sensible!
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Privatteer » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:44 pm

Bet the unit is switchmode. Thus the output is non-rms. So your standard cheap power meters will read about 10-20% low on devices fed from its output.

Most electronics with wide range power supplies will just draw more current.
Purely resistive loads such as bar heater will have a minor reduction but might run longer.

Loaded pumps would probably draw more current.
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby koolau » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:58 pm

I don't know for sure but most likely it's a sinewave unit. In the last few years pure sinewave inverters have became pretty common. (As opposed to modified sine wave).They digitally synthesize the sine wave using PWM with high accuracy, typically better than 1% THD. That's far better than the mains voltage. Some appliances would not work with modified sinewave (which is a square wave with a step in it) or draw high current.
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby PES » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:23 am

A number of questions have been asked and comments made about the VPhase product and about Voltage Optimisation (or "VO", as it's known). Given that we're the national distributor of the VPhase, we thought we should make a formal response. In this response we intend to:

  • Acknowledge some things that have been said that are fair and accurate;
  • Set the record straight on some things that have been said that are just plain wrong; and
  • Try to make some objective and sensible comments about Voltage Optimisation in general.

However, first of all some introductory comments. The VPhase is a product that's owned by a listed UK entity. It's had millions of pounds of R&D go into it; it's patented in more than a dozen countries around the world; it's been widely awarded by companies such as Shell and General Electric after extensive testing.

Moreover, VO itself has been around for a long time. Many large industrial and commercial companies spend tens of millions of dollars on it. A large supermarket chain in Australia just made a huge commitment to a VO solution (not ours!) after extensive testing. The same has happened in the UK. These are hard-nosed business people, not easily taken in.

It's simply not rational to call VO a scam. There are scams in the power-saving area (I will mention some below, though not by name) but VO in general is not a scam and neither is the VPhase product.

Nor is it magic. Neither VO in general (nor the VPhase in particular) is magic. How it works is simple and clear. It's basic physics. It works well in some situations and doesn't work in others. It's not a silver bullet.

Acknowledging the Facts

A number of people have made points that we make ourselves in promoting the VPhase. Let's go through a few.

For the record, no VO solution will help with a thermostatically-controlled resistive load. Not the VPhase - not any VO product. If you supply lower volts to your electric stove it will just take longer to heat, and use the same power. And, in fact, for the main thermostatically-controlled resistive loads (electric hot water and electric ovens, or cookers as they call them in the UK) we don't even connect those circuits to the VPhase.

Switched-mode power supplies don't benefit from VO. If you reduce the voltage to your laptop, the laptop "brick" will just draw more current. No win there.

So those things are true and no honest vendor of a VO product will deny it.

Setting the Record Straight

Having said the above, there's more to it than that. Going back to thermostatically-controlled resistive loads, there are situations where the thermostats aren't used properly. Many people, for instance, think that a thermostat should be turned up on cold days and down on warmer ones. Some people will just wind a thermostat up to the highest/lowest temperature - you may as well not have a thermostat! So there are some situations - corner cases - where a VO product can help even a thermostatically-controlled load. But we don't really promote that.

More importantly, there are a lot of resistive loads that aren't thermostatically controlled. Clothes-dryers, hair-dryers, heated towel-rails, radiators, electric blankets, etc - these are all good examples. And on straight ohmic loads, a drop in voltage of 12% from 250V to 220V will yield a drop in power of just over 22.5%. That's Ohm's law.

[And as an aside, to respond to someone who said "If you drop the power, the current will increase - that's Ohm's law", allow us to say this: that's not Ohm's law at all. If you're going to quote something, understand it first! V=IR - do the math!]

And on the subject of switched-mode power supplies, most switched-mode power supplies are for low-power items like laptops. The author's house has four laptops (each one drawing about a light-bulb's worth of power) and 83 light bulbs. Guess which is more important when it comes to the power bill?

Which leads to an important point: in the real world, houses aren't filled with just one sort of load. There's lighting, ceiling fans, exhaust fans, TVs, radios, pool pumps, new fridges, old fridges, dishwashers, washing machines, and so on. Some are new and highly efficient. But many of us have an old beer fridge in the garage, and even some incandescent globes!

VPhase in the UK has had an independent consulting firm carry out tests on many different appliances, and the savings varied from -2% (yep - a negative!) to 21%. The report is publically available. The reality is that houses have a mixture of loads, and the exact blend will differ from home to home. Most of our customers get between 8% and 12% over their whole power bill.

Those with a house full of efficient LED lights and laptops and with an electric stove and hot water will get a relatively small saving. A VPhase may not make sense for them. Those (like the author) with a lot of older lighting, two fridges (one quite old), gas stove and gas hot water, a pool pump, clothes-dryer, and so on will enjoy a much higher saving. It's horses for courses.

At 8-12% savings, many people will pay for their system in two to five years. Why the variation? It depends on the appliance mix, the cost of power, what you predict will happen to power bills, and how much power you use.

Other Reports

Several people have quoted other independent reports. Remember, independent doesn't mean professional (one of the papers below has at least three grammatical errors and two spelling errors in it, and while that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the content, it does reflect on quality control). Also, independence doesn't mean that trials have carried out using a sensible methodology.

The Which? Report done in the UK claimed to assess the ability of various devices to save power, but damned the VPhase because the manufacturing process of the product emitted too much CO2 (even though they didn't actually have a figure for how much!) They also said that the VPhase would "take a long time to pay for itself". Hopefully it's clear from the previous discussion that how long it takes to pay for the unit can't be determined quite that simply! But then they also paid out on a shower-head because it would be easier to turn the tap down, and because one user who had inadequate water pressure complained! We think that speaks for itself.

Others have quoted the "Hood Report" from the University of Ballarat as saying that VO doesn't work. If you read that report, you'll see that it doesn't say that at all. In fact, It says that with 5% higher voltage:

  • Thermostatically-controlled resistive loads won't benefit;
  • Switched-mode power supplies won't benefit;
  • Non-thermostatically controlled heaters would use 10% more power and "add significantly to energy cost";
  • Refrigeration and reverse cycle air-conditioning would be cost neutral (although air-conditioning wasn't tested);
  • Other appliances using motors would have a 10% increase in energy cost;
  • Lighting would cost 8% more.

That's with 5% higher voltages. With 12% lower voltages, the "no change"s remain "no change". The rest change proportionally: 10% more power becomes around 25% less and the 8% more becomes around 20% less. Which is pretty much what we see in real life.

It's also worth bearing in mind that it's an eight-year-old report, and since then, there have been two dramatic changes to most domestic power users in Australia. Firstly, power costs (and therefore the chance for savings) have risen dramatically. Secondly, voltages have risen, too, driven by the widespread installation of solar, to the point where it's becoming a real problem for power companies. Both of these changes make VO more attractive.

Scams

Unfortunately, there are a number of scams out there. Broadly, anything capacitor-based, or anything that claims to improve power factor is a scam in the residential context for a simple reason: residential customers don't pay for power factor: it's irrelevant to them!

Anything that plugs into any power point and claims to reduce your whole power bill is a scam - it's like putting something on a tap and expecting to cut your entire household water usage.

Any (in case you haven't seen it) unfortunately, devices powered by the hidden power of the universe, or fusion power are still scams. Don't just walk away from these scams - run!

Conclusion

VO is not a scam. It's simple physics. It's been around a long time and in the commercial and industrial world it's well accepted. Hard-nosed people like those running some of the largest companies in the world don't pay real money for VO if it doesn't work.

The VPhase is not a scam either. But it's not magic. Don't believe outrageous claims you may see on TV shows, but don't discount careful, independent engineering reports that explain their methodology and layout the facts clearly. And remember, the real results vary from house to house - that's just reality.

A final comment. You pay for a VO solution once, but power bills keep coming in. And keep going up. If you think power's getting cheaper, then maybe you don't care about saving on your power bills. But if you can see the costs of power continuing to increase, then your savings will just continue to rise.
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