No More Blackouts

News, product developments and events occurring in the wind and solar power industry

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Wed May 26, 2010 12:35 am

[quote-"Gully"]
My theory was that a SunnyBoy can be run (legally, with anti-islanding enabled) by using a UPS as the synch source and charging the UPS, while the UPS powered AC circuitry once it was disconnected from the meter/mains, never to disabling anti-islanding.[/quote]

Unfortunately this is only a Theory Gully , pretty much the same theory tracker posted earlier.
The fact is a SunnyBoy with or without Anti-islanding enabled will not sync to the output of a UPS.
I have mentioned earlier in this thread that the SunnyBoy's are the only GCI that will work with the Sunny Backup , they are the only inverters that understand and can be controlled with Frequency Shift Power Control by the SBU .

Putting the Backup aside for minute,
Now with Anti-islanding enabled as you suggest , the Sunnyboy needs to sync with the grid , it does this by measuring grid impedance , voltage and frequency , A UPS does not present itself with anything like what the Sunnyboy is expecting to see to allow it to Sync , so it never will.
Also a GCI needs to know the Grid impedance because the output is not controllable , EG: the inverter needs to be able to output everything is it making in order to sync or stay online , they don't sit there like a battery waiting for you to draw as much as you need , it is all or nothing.
Now if you were to be absolutely crazy and disable anti-islanding , the Sunnyboy will read the impedance of the UPS , It's wont test to see if it is compatible , it will see the output of the UPS as a Source to unload it's total output , The result will be an instant and unpredictable explosion guaranteed !
Not even 2 UPS's can be paralleled without a communications link to sync them together , not a feature all UPS's have.

So to the backup system again.
The SBU has can accept reverse power at it's output , another ingenious feature which allows power from the sunnyboy to be converted from 240AC via the internal charger to 48vdc to charge the batteries.
It can power loads and charge the batteries at the same time , if the batteries are fully charged it can power the loads by itself or assist the backup system to provide a continuous 9kw ( if Sunnyboy is producing maximum output).
What is most important is that in either mode the SBU needs to operate it does at all times control the output of the Sunnyboy using the Frequency Shift Power Control.
It can switch the Sunnyboy into standby mode if there is no need for it EG: batteries are full and loads are only a few hundred watts., also if the SBU for some strange was to output irregular voltage the Sunnyboy while in islanding mode still has protection not to dissimilar to anti-islanding mode to shut itself off.

Basically as has been discussed apart from it being very dangerous , there is no way to achieve what this theory proposes , as I have said plenty of times already there is NO other system that is the same or even close to the Sunny Backup , It is incredibly sophisticated technology and needs to be to do what it does.

One other thing worth mentioning and for Sojin's benefit , disabling or modifying the "Grid Guard" / "Anti-Islanding" is not a user function , so in essence while people have all these idea's about using their GCI's to test theories , it's not something that in reality they can experiment with ( thankfully ) .

Gully , The Automatic Switch box used with the SBU5000 is connected via communication cables , only the SBU5000 has the ability to control it , the SBU can't work without it either.
Last edited by Joey on Wed May 26, 2010 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joey
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:24 pm

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Wed May 26, 2010 1:05 am

[quote-"Gully"]I don't see any proof in what you've discussed, it's only your opinion.[/quote]
Sojin_Muneshi
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 7:29 pm
Location: Melbourne Victoria - CitiPower Network AGL Retailer

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby gully » Wed May 26, 2010 9:19 am

Joey: Thanks for explaining that, i'd glad to understand the ins and outs of it all. Anyone got a cheap SBU to offload? :P

Sojin_Muneshi wrote:Gully,

I have already provided my proof and facts two posts ago, I assume you are not a registered Electrical Contractor? as if you were, you should already know all of this?

Please explain how your GPS proposal qualifies under sections 6.8.2 and 6.8.3 of the VSIRs above which govern installations connnected at your premise in SPI-Ausnet?


Sojin: Please avoid such condescending remarks mate, there's no need for it, you seem hell-bent on attacking people, this is not what the forum is about. It is about sharing ideas and learning.
------ --- - -- -- - -
Network/Retailer: SP Ausnet / Red Energy (EM 1200 smart meter)
PV: 10 x 175w Suntech (1.75kW) panels and SMA SB1700 Inverter
SHW: AAE Solar Gas Storage 250L 30 tube
Tank: 10,000L Tankmasta w/ Rainbank 2 into laundry/toilet
gully
Solar Evangelist
Solar Evangelist
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:05 pm

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Thu May 27, 2010 12:15 am

Gully,

We have had a number of clashes, and perhaps both our natural styles conflict, I'm sorry if you think I am condescending to you?

This thread was started by Joey referring to the SBU5000 integrated Grid connected/backup unit, a very complex piece of equipment, he later fully disclosed its credentials with the facts around its schematic design, its anti-islanding configuration and its certification to AS4777.2 and .3.

I was more than happy to be informed, and corrected by Joey in regards to the SBU5000 and took the opportunity to learn something new.

However that standard is not the only rules, codes and laws governing such devices and their "installation", that is a fact, even if not understood by most people?

Joey also subsequently apparantly acknowledged the basis of my concerns and opinions, and apparantly the source? but I will simply refer to his later comments in reply to me in posts above, rather than speaking on his behalf.

Subsequent posts by "others" proposed alternative "systems" by installing a certified inverter in modes and configurations that clearly seemed not based on the manufacturers installation requirements, it would seem logical that such use would then not comply with AS4777.1 (the section of that standard dealing with installation), but in anycase such a system would also need to comply with those other rules, codes and laws.

I entered the debate trying to highlight such issues, referring to the legality of such adhoc designs and installations, - to be told by you I did not understand what was being discussed.

Further clarifications came from me, to which I was told I was not providing any facts to support my opinions.

So then I supplied facts to support my opinions, to which the response was [quote-"Gully"]I don't see any proof in what you've discussed, it's only your opinion.[/quote]

(I note a trend here to an engagement between us in another thread - same course of events, same outcome)

I then questioned your knowledge on this same subject and invited you to review my facts and explain how your theory was legal against those requirements which I note has not eventuated, and I suspect never will?.

I posted in this thread due to my concerns such debates would encourage "home hobbiest" attempts to recreate the SBU5000 in adhoc, illegal and unsafe designs and illegal wiring.

The rules that govern such things are not "just" about stopping back feed into the grid, its to stop interference and damage to other common node customers, and risking their safety or appliances, as well as any person working on the non-compliant premise and unaware there is an unapproved and perhaps unlabelled alternate power supply installed and operational. This extends to a future purchaser of such a home. -

The apparant lack of understanding of such issues caused me to ask if you are a registered Electrical contractor, which I note you did not clarify?, and suspect never will?

All of this may seem condescending? I'm sorry if that has how it came across, I might consider its simply frustration at being told constantly by someone who doesnt evidence his opinions, that my opinions are factless, even after posting a link and a paragraph directly refering to the facts in the link?

I dont intend to reply further to you, ignore or rebute the above as you wish, my comments, opinions and facts are listed above to counter any mis-information or "theories" that might lead to a dangerous or illegal installation being created by a newbie adopting such "theories" after being led here by google, as I was in the first case, that was my prime concern.

Thanks to the operators of this forum for permitting me to make my contributions and leaving them to stand, I will leave you gully to post in immunity from any further responses from me on any topic, its clear you have no intention of considering any counter opinion, or evidence I might put forward on any issue. enjoy

bye

Sojin
Sojin_Muneshi
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 7:29 pm
Location: Melbourne Victoria - CitiPower Network AGL Retailer

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 27, 2010 8:47 am

Guys, keep emotions and egos out of technical threads, it provides no value to the reader - it's just noise.

Challenging someone on a point is fine, it's all in the tone and delivery - same with responding to challenges.

If you feel affronted, PM the person and air your grievances, or PM me.
Michael B.
Energy Matters Forum Team (Please note: I am not a solar tech or installer)

Check out Energy Matters' current solar power specials
or try our instant online solar quoting system!
User avatar
MichaelB
Energy Matters Team
Energy Matters Team
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:03 am

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Thu May 27, 2010 10:28 am

Michael,

thankyou for your patience and concern for both parties and the wider spectators, I understand your requirements, and I am sure there will be no further problems between gully and myself from my point of view, I have found a very useful user feature in the control panel.

regards

Sojin
Sojin_Muneshi
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 7:29 pm
Location: Melbourne Victoria - CitiPower Network AGL Retailer

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby wappinghigh » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:38 pm

Hi Joey. I'm very interested in your SMA backup system.
To me this gives another great additional use and justification for a solar install
But I'm very confused after reading the thread!

So a couple of quick questions (for a newbie)

1/ Are you in Victoria?, and could you confirm that your EM installed system is fully legal and compliant with the electrical provider.
2/ If 1/ = yes. Which provider? and was there any special signing off etc..
3/ Is the 12K in addition to say a 3KW system or is it the total price of everything (including panels) That is what is the additional cost of adding the SMA backup box?
4/ Does the system give true sinewave backup and protection ...ie is it suitable for computers/networks and other power sensitive gear
5/ How big are your batteries..and what is your normal daily power consumption? If the backout happened at night with no sun, how long could you run without mains power?
6/ I already have a few UPS's in my place connecting my critical cbus, network and computers. Could I reliably sell these UPS deices, or would you still recommend me leaving them connected?

Thanks. I've been plagued by brownouts and blackouts stuffing up my networked home auto system for years now and am very much interested in you system and your answers. :D
wappinghigh
Solar Supporter
Solar Supporter
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:55 pm

wappinghigh wrote:Hi Joey. I'm very interested in your SMA backup system.
To me this gives another great additional use and justification for a solar install
But I'm very confused after reading the thread!

So a couple of quick questions (for a newbie)

1/ Are you in Victoria?, and could you confirm that your EM installed system is fully legal and compliant with the electrical provider.
2/ If 1/ = yes. Which provider? and was there any special signing off etc..
3/ Is the 12K in addition to say a 3KW system or is it the total price of everything (including panels) That is what is the additional cost of adding the SMA backup box?
4/ Does the system give true sinewave backup and protection ...ie is it suitable for computers/networks and other power sensitive gear
5/ How big are your batteries..and what is your normal daily power consumption? If the backout happened at night with no sun, how long could you run without mains power?
6/ I already have a few UPS's in my place connecting my critical cbus, network and computers. Could I reliably sell these UPS deices, or would you still recommend me leaving them connected?

Thanks. I've been plagued by brownouts and blackouts stuffing up my networked home auto system for years now and am very much interested in you system and your answers. :D


Hi , plagued by brownouts and blackouts that "was" my world :)

1. I am in WA but I am sure if you contact EM they will guide you as to the installation and legalities in your state.

2. refer to answer 1.

3. I have had mine for nearly 2 years now and I know the prices have dropped , but the cost is definitely on top and separate to a PV system , there are no grants , rebates etc for a backup system.
The batteries are also extra on top of the backup system price , this cost is totally variable depending on what you need .

4. Yes totally 100% true sinewave , only it is cleaner and more stable than the grid can supply .

5. My batteries are 720ah@ 48v so are enough storage to keep us going for 2 1/2 days without sun , our usage is around 12kwh , but even on a full cloudy day the PV will produce at very least 12kwh , being 4.2kw it averages 16kwh per day but this time of year is making around 30kwh per day.
We can already stay disconnected from the grid permanently without having to conserve or watch what we use but we actually make money by being connected to the grid.

6. you definitely will not need any plug in UPS's , they will become a thing of the past as will brownouts and blackouts.
Joey
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:24 pm

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby wappinghigh » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:59 pm

Thanks so much for your help :D

So if I was to say put in a 4 -5 KW system using an SMA inverter, I could add the SMA backup module later?..or would I have to do it all in one go? I assume the inverter needs to be close to the batteries.... I am basically thinking... heck, I'll go with an SMA system, then if I can add the backup option later when I can afford it ...then well that is a bonus!
wappinghigh
Solar Supporter
Solar Supporter
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: No More Blackouts

Postby Joey » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:42 am

wappinghigh wrote:Thanks so much for your help :D

So if I was to say put in a 4 -5 KW system using an SMA inverter, I could add the SMA backup module later?..or would I have to do it all in one go? I assume the inverter needs to be close to the batteries.... I am basically thinking... heck, I'll go with an SMA system, then if I can add the backup option later when I can afford it ...then well that is a bonus!


Great choice going with SMA , the backup can be added later but as you probably realize it can only be added to an SMA inverter.
Closer the better for batteries , I have Gel Batteries because I wanted them close and indoors but I wouldn't even consider doing this with wet cell batteries due to the harmful and corrosive gases.
The batteries are 72KG each and I have 12 of them all mounted on a very strong powder coated rack.

Fortunately you can start small and add batteries as you can afford them.
Joey
Solar Crusader
Solar Crusader
 
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:24 pm

Previous

Return to Solar And Wind Power News

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

new solar power specials