Global Warming or Cooling

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Global Warming or Cooling

Postby Tracker » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:09 pm

Folks - If you have not seen this site - have a look... I feel that it is everyone's responsibility to read it, before we are all suffocated by the bureaucracy, and people wanting to grand-stand on the world stage...

http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/Review_Article_HTML.php
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby zzsstt » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:48 pm

There are an increasing number of people who are questioning the "science" behind the man-made climate change theory. That the climate is changing, and in fact is always changing, is in no doubt. But many people, including a large and growing number of scientists, are now questioning whether "we" have much or anything to do with that change. Furthermore, is the change really detrimental?

"Evidence" is often open to interpretation. Computer models and simulations will only ever show what they were designed to show. Worse still is that "facts" are rarely questioned by peope who want them to be true, and untruths are easy to sell into such markets. Cows are bad for the environment? Melting ice raises sea levels? Hmmm. Yet how many people here would question these "facts"?

Climate change has been elevated to the status of a religion (for the masses), arguably aided by people who stand to make a great deal from the result. In such a situation, logical argument or discussion becomes a thing of the past. Even standard scientific practice (formulate a theory and then try to disprove it) is abandoned in favour of an "it's true, just accept it" approach.

Even when "the signs" don't eventuate, there is an excuse. The media made big of a king tide a few months ago, we were all supposed to take photos and see "the shape of things to come". When it failed to happen, there was an excuse. When it was demonstrated that land temperatures had not risen since the 90's, we were told that sea temperatures were the issue. When it was shown that sea temperatures had also not risen, it was no longer temperatures per se that were the issue.... And does anybody even remember the hole in the ozone layer?

Worse still, of course, is the alledged attempt to edit the past to suit the present. Historical average temperatures in Australia have changed, I am told, as the old data is "corrected" and anomalies are removed. It is, of course, purely by chance that these changes have resulted in a decrease in historical average temperature as the hotter years have been removed.

Every "report" gets more scary than the last, though the details become blurred. Originally the IPCC statements contained largely numerical predictions, x mm of sea level, x degrees of temperature etc.. Now they are far more extreme, but far less detailed and more based in prose than science. It's also worth noting that a number of the contributing authors to those reports are very unhappy with the process.

Profligate use of resources is never a good thing. Pollution and waste are never a good thing. But neither is creating unnecessary hardship in an attempt to solve a problem that does not exist.

Sadly I don't think you'll find much support in any "enviro" forum....
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby Tracker » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:36 pm

I do not think that being Green and being an alarmist, are one and the same.

I am fairly green, pale-green perhaps.. I have a larger PV setup.. I have new-efficient Hot-Water, and I have about 5000ltr or stored rain-water, and I am planning Grey-Water reuse, and Wind Power.
To the unknowing , I might appear a radical tree-hugger, but I do not believe any of the alarmist crap that Gory-Al presented in his crap attempt to be scientific.

I do the seemingly green things because I do believe that the good-days will come to an end and we must start doing things NOW.. I also do it because I know what cRudd has planned for us by way of increased costs, and I want to ensure that he gets as little as possible of MY money..
The fact that our idiot Politicians can't use a calculator and figure out that dams designed to supply X-Million people, WILL empty faster when 2xX-Million are being supplied, is evidence of delusion, not lower rainfall.

What annoys me is when I find that Mr. Crudd is happy to sign me up for new taxes, and my children, and their children to come, simply because he see a popularist International Appointment awaiting him, where he can impress the gullible with his imagined expertise.

The day Kyoto was signed, I said "Now watch the new taxes".. NOW - we know why he needs those taxes, to pay off the massive debt that he has created for our Grand-Children, NOT to pay for Green energy, which by definition MUST include Nuclear Power for Base Load.

http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/Review_Article_HTML.php

The one thing that the above report has done is to confirm what so many suspected, and for so long. It's all a Crock of cRudd.

Sadly I don't think you'll find much support in any "enviro" forum....


I think that you might be very surprised as to how many on this forum, will spend the bucks to be green - because they see that it is GOOD for the planet, but NOT because they really believe that we alone, are responsible for Global Warming, or Global Cooling , or Climate Change.

I remember Earlwood (Sydney) summers that were SOOOO hot... that we thought we were going to die, and when the road tar stuck to your shoes, and if you were foolish enough to cross the road bare-footed, you could end up with third degree burns from the molten tar stuck to your skin.. and winters when you could not use the car because of the amount of ice on them. Were those events to happen today, there would be panic stations, and VIP's would be seeking the first Shuttle off the Planet.

Temp-SunSpots.jpg
Correlation - Rising Temperature & Solar Activity
-- Fossil-Fuel usage starts in the middle --
Temp-SunSpots.jpg (22.55 KiB) Viewed 6288 times


I hope that you will find that most on this forum are educated enough to recognise the significance of the above graph.. given the fact that serious Fossil-Fuel usage, started after the 1940's.
If they can't then they should not be designing PV systems !
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby zzsstt » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:11 am

Tracker wrote:I think that you might be very surprised as to how many on this forum, will spend the bucks to be green - because they see that it is GOOD for the planet, but NOT because they really believe that we alone, are responsible for Global Warming, or Global Cooling , or Climate Change.


I would really like to find that this was the case but in the short time that I have been reading this forum I have seen many posts that include reference to "making the planet uninhabitable" (or variations on the theme). I take such comments to mean the writer is a devout believer......

I have also read, scanned or been involved with several other energy/sustainability web sites and forums, and the same pattern emerges. The more extreme views (or viewers) tend to dominate, the visitors tend to move on quite quickly, or those that stay slowly become believers themselves. The mis-information is propagated and grows, and anyone who proposes an alternative view is seen as a heretic.

In the real world, of course there are people who are "doing the right thing" for reasons other than the religious belief that the world is ending, but a forum like this will tend to retain the more extreme individuals (and sometimes those who see a need for someone to refute the misinformation) whilst those in search of some information will tend to get that info and then move on.

Still, it's nice to know there are a few of us who don't simply believe whatever we're told!
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby Tracker » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:46 am

Global Warming or Cooling, they could not decide because the experts could not decide because it was neither, so they called it simply - CHANGE

Well then, lets you and I show that life is beautiful.
The World is a good place and that we can individually make it better, without making others look to the Here-After as their only source of hope, , and may extreme views be just that !

Despite what the doom-sayers declare, we will be here in 100 years, and the sea level will change, as it has for millions of years and the climate will change as it has for that same period.. BUT - it will NOT be because of CO2, and we collectively need to hope that there is some CO2 around in 100 years, to sustain life on this CARBON dependent planet.

I don't see this forum as an "Environment Forum" -- It's a Sustainability Forum, it's an innovation forum, it's a place where we can learn new things about fields which we have had no previous interest.
All that has NOTHING to do the environment other than what we individually do it can influence beneficial change..
Mr. C.Rudd has done more to harm our personal environments that anyone in Australia's history.. He could have done so much more to improve it and he dropped the ball for personal grandiosement (new word for your Funken-Wagnel)

http://forums.energymatters.com.au/wind-solar-misc/topic371.html?sid=80d267bf75e5db047e877b9cfb93bda2

Have a look at my latest rant !

I'll get banned from this forum soon !

Our thanks to EM for supporting this learning tool.. They have shown a commitment to education and it's refreshing to experience their strong sales-ethics and their will to lead.
Last edited by Tracker on Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby MichaelB » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:42 am

I was reading a very long debate between 2 science talkin' dudes yesterday on the topic of climate change, most of which went right over my head; but in the end it wound up being really just an ad hominem type of exchange; just with multiple syllable words :).

For all the time invested in that debate, I don't think it will alter anyone's views due to the way the argument developed. It started out as 2 academics discussing an important issue and turned into a battle of egos.

This is probably the thing to fear more than climate change, meteors and pandemics - our inability to get along, respect each other and "do unto others"; it's the root of all our woes - environmental and otherwise.

.. oh, and overpopulation of course! ;).
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby zzsstt » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:35 pm

The problem is exactly as you suggest, made worse by the fact that their are now so many people making money from climate change that it is hard for anyone to present a case against it withut being labelled a heretic. Perhaps more importantly there are so many people who have stood up and made BIG claims, that to even listen to a counter argument is to risk having to eat a massive amount of humble pie. Lets face it, if (when?) anthropogenic climate change is disproved, we will have to largely write off the "scientific" skills of everyone who said it was real. Perhaps a politicfian will be able to claim that he/she was misinformed by those scientists thought to be experts, but that is still a big hole to climb out of, especially if by then we have made a bunch of changes that have caused anyone disadvantage. Imagine the queue of farmers, miners etc. lining up to file damages cases if the ETS is pushed through and climate change then disproved.

The "scientists" who supported if will, I assume, have to retire en masse. I cannot think they would hope to retai any credibility on any subject at all, if they got this one wrong!

So the result is that nobody gets a fair crack at a counter argument. The only people funding any "anti" climate change research will be said to be politicially or financially motivated. Any actual scientists investigating are quacks, loonies or in the pay of the oil companies (this last one may be true, as the oil companies are about the only people funding such research!).

The thing that still scares me most is that I have yet to see any evidence for climate change that does not come from a computer model. A computer cannot think, but simply carries out calculations very quickly. The process that the computer uses to find a result is simply a series of commands (a "program") that someone has written. Therefore it is absolutely the case that the result of a computer simulation ("program") is exactly what the programmer wanted it to be............. the programmer listed the parameters, decided what parameters had what influence on anything else, and made any other assumptions needed. If the programmer wanted to prove that trout live in trees, he could write a simulation that showed it. Of course the "proof" of a simulation is how accurately the real world agrees with what the simulation suggested. Sadly, given that most measurements suggest no global warming on land or ocean, perhaps the simulations are not so accurate?

There seems to be a great deal of evidence AGAINST climate change that comes from measurements, however.
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby EnergyMatters » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:42 pm

I think the "anti" climate change folks had the lectern for quite a while :). Anyone who believed in climate change up until relatively recently was considered a nutter or censored by the mainstream. Case in point is Dr. James Hansen:

Two years after Hansen and other agency employees described a pattern of distortion and suppression of climate science by political appointees, the agency’s inspector general found that the NASA Office of Public Affairs had mischaracterized the science of climate change intended for the public


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hans ... censorship

(added: forgot to post under my other username again which is michaelb - the opinions I express in this thread may not be that of Energy Matters heh)
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby Tracker » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:19 pm

zzsstt wrote:There seems to be a great deal of evidence AGAINST climate change that comes from measurements, however.


Come of it - What sought of goose are you? How can ANYONE claim that there is no Climate-Change.

I have half of Lightning-Ridge in my gutters and My bloody dog got blowed away Monday,

I have yet to see any evidence for climate change

The car got drenched yesterday, and the Lightning Ridge dirt caused a mud-slide in the family room..
It snowed on the weekend...
and I just turned on the Air-Con today..

ANYONE with clean windows KNOWS there is climate change..

HeHe !
LOL ! ( I used to think that meant LotsOfLove - and people really liked me )

Sadly - Clean Windows is all that's needed to be a climate-change expert
- Clean Windows and foggy memory.
(BUT - Don't ignore the upward trend from B4 we started burning OIL.)

As I have said elsewhere... I am old enough to remember my childhood, with Christmas periods of over the 100, day after day after day.. and Winters of frozen cars - In EARLWOOD (Sydney), if you don't mind.

Perhaps more importantly, there are so many people who have stood up and made BIG claims, that to even listen to a counter argument is to risk having to eat a massive amount of humble pie.
Lets face it, if (when?) anthropogenic climate change is disproved, we will have to largely write off the "scientific" skills of everyone who said it was real.


How right you are !! and more so for a Politician... Mr C.Rudd is a great point in case..
Just look at the hole he's in with the Boat-People.. Tried to pull the "Good Samaritan - we have to help" stunt, to gain votes and now is swamped in refugees..
At least with Climate-Change, he can claim ignorance and plausible-deniability - "I was only acting on advice"

Thanks for your thoughts ZST - ALL totally spot on.

There is so much confusion out there in the average mind.. People want to believe their leaders - Technical and Political, and will react favorably to being shown that they have nothing to fear in Climate-Change, or in the least -- "It's all to do with the SUN , and no one can change whatever is happening"
I am certain that there IS climate change, but it's incremental.. There are extremes that make it seem a disaster is pending. BUT == Go back to that graph that shows a TOTAL CORRELATION with the Solar Activity, and you sit back and say "let it happen" -- Nuffin we can do !

As for Mr C.Rudd being appointed "Friend-of-the Chair" for Copenhagen .. God help us...
That's what he has been after.. and... That STUPID woman on the radio this AM admitted that "We need to lead the world - not follow" MUST be blond!

Temp-SunSpots.jpg
Global Warming???
Temp-SunSpots.jpg (22.55 KiB) Viewed 6251 times


Please - can anyone look at the graph and explain to us WHY Co2 has caused the temperature to rise?

PS - Mr. Turnbull -- What an idiot he must be to not grasp the ANTI cause..
Perhaps he too want's a UN job after Politics

PPS - Why should we worry, the closer we get to solar disaster, the more electricity we generate
- Bring it on Lord -- I'll get my 2Kw output even if it KILLS me.!!
Last edited by Tracker on Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
Tracker
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Re: Global Warming or Cooling

Postby Tracker » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:30 pm

EnergyMatters wrote:I think the "anti" climate change folks had the lectern for quite a while :). Anyone who believed in climate change up until relatively recently was considered a nutter or censored by the mainstream.



Do you really mean it, or are you jesting, Michael ?

We, the great unwashed, have questioned Climate-Change, but ALL of the Intelligencia have declared it FACT... We know that a great many disagreed, but the fact taht we heard little from them would seem to confirm they THEY were the ones being censored.

Sadly, the only out, for so very many, is to blindly push ahead... ie Carbon Tax ETC. ETC.
and hope to get a job in the Carbon Industry, when they are exposed as frauds.
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter - Always ready to learn and share.
2 x CMS2000 (fan cooled) GCI and SE 170W panels
1.7kW First Solar/Outback Island circuit - Peak Replacement Power
Governments won't save the world :-) They will just TAX it :-(
Tracker
Solar Crusader
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Posts: 5111
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:54 am
Location: SYDNEY --- EA - Network, Retailer - EA

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