VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Tracker » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:30 am

And it's not constant output. You'll find the specs on our website. It won't reduce by > 27V. So at 257V in, you get 230V out. But at < 220V in, it takes itself out of the circuit. Other than that, fixed 220V, yes.

So given this, you are saying that it will output 220v for anything below a grid voltage of 247v, and then above that, the output will just be 27v lower than grid.. OK we have that...
Well it's relevant from two perspectives. Firstly, it makes a big difference to how much VO can save you on your electricity bill (as a percentage). It tells you where to look for power savings. If you're like me and you have gas or solar hot water and heating then the message is simple: aircon, fridges, lights and general appliances are all that really matter.

So then you are pleased with the system on the basis of your savings, but this is based on a 25% component not being in you equation.. biased..savings perhaps..?
Well there are two issues: the refrigeration and the blowers. I don't have specific data, and I'm unwilling to speculate (speculation - as opposed to data - is half the problem here) but you might find no saving, or a saving on the blower but not on the refrigeration. It would be good to find out.

So you admit that on the issue of a seven pc chunk you really don't know ..

What are the savings for cfl lighting or for led lighting..... another seven pc..
Incandescent bulbs are now unobtainable, except for specialty bulbs.. I suppose there are halogen bulbs, but surely a reduction in voltage would have significant effect on intensity and temperature ...

What does a microwave cooker come under, given that most cooking these days is via microwave and convection cookers ..

And I won't waste time debating VIT.. We ARE talking about POWER bills, if that was missed.
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VPhase - the benefits

Postby Tracker » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:33 am

PES wrote:(Not being picky - just trying to be accurate).


Accuracy and truth are good :-)

I'm still hoping to be convinced of any benefit in vphase..

With lighting having changed from incandescent, what are the benefits there ..
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VPhase - No Real power savings..

Postby Tracker » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:23 pm

So, where did we get to - Seems there is no response, but perhaps we can summarise
  • Water heating: 25%
  • Heating: 19%
  • Cooling: 19%
  • Other appliances: 16%
  • Lighting: 7%
  • Refrigeration: 7%
  • Cooking: 4%
  • Standby: 3%

WATER HEATING: 25%
No advantage for normal resistive heating as the reduced voltage will just cause it to heat for longer..
For Heat-Pumps - See Refrigeration.
For Solar - see motors and assume there will NO measurable difference.. Many have RESISTIVE boost heating..!

COOLING: 19%
Cooling will normally come under the category of "Refrigeration", but the exceptions would be ceiling fans, where the difference would be absolutely tiny.
Evaporative coolers would come under motors generally.
Lower Voltage=Lower Current=Lower output..
For same output, need more time = more power

OTHER APPLIANCES: 16%
Probably , and mainly include MOTORS, and resistive heating.

LIGHTING: 7%
These days with the common use of CFL's there would be no practical difference, but I am able to be convinced.

REFRIGERATION: 7%
Refrigeration, including Air-Conditioning, relied on a motor to compress the gas and create the heat-pump action.. One would speculate that lowering the voltage would result in the compressor (motor) running for longer, to achieve the same level of cooling.. Lower Voltage = Longer Time.. and possible greater "Strain" on the compressors..

COOKING: 4%
Cooking is generally either RESISTIVE and Thermostatically Controlled, or it might be devices like Microwaves, where either they use "Inverter" technology and hence increases current for lower voltage, or if it accepts the lower voltage, will deliver lower power...

STANDBY: 3%
OK this is a little unknown as we really don't know what it covers, but ALL techno devices, would use a switch mode Power Supply and so there would be no savings.

I'm sorry, but when you analyse what the agent himself says, the greatest saving under VPhase, is how the customer actually uses power after the installation.. If that is the only benefit, then pay ME the $1000 and I will tell you how to save as much power... ;) .. :lol:

PLEASE - Anyone - Convince me that I am wrong..
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Re: VPhase - No Real power savings..

Postby Smurf1976 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:45 pm

Tracker wrote:STANDBY: 3%
OK this is a little unknown as we really don't know what it covers, but ALL techno devices, would use a switch mode Power Supply and so there would be no savings.

I'd have thought that standby would be the main actual saving. Things like my camera charger etc certainly run cooler when plugged into 110V in the US than they do at 240V in Australia but the battery charges just as quickly. In theory at least, less heat = some sort of energy saving.

But as for all the rest, well if I need to put 10 kWh of heat into the water then I need to put 10 kWh of heat in to the water. Whether that comes from 240V, 220V, gas, solar, an old chip heater or even a kero burner is irrelevant to the fact that you need 10 kWh of heat put into the water. The only way you'll save, apart from the obvious one of simply using less hot water or not having it so hot, is to reduce waste (insulate the pipes etc) or use a cheaper means of heating it (solar, gas, whatever). Simply heating it more slowly isn't going to help.

Same goes for heating or cooling the room. If I need 3kW of heat to maintain a stable temperature then I need 3kW of heat. Electric, gas, heating oil, wood, coal or whatever it's still 3kW of heat. Running the heater at a lower voltage doesn't change this fact. At best, it saves a bit of power at the expense of giving you less heat.

Overall, the same amount of work has to be done. Any potential saving is limited to the extent to which a lower supply voltage results in that work being done more efficiently and/or eliminating over servicing (Eg the heater is too hot anyway and doesn't have a thermostat).
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Tracker » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:37 am

Overall, the same amount of work has to be done.

Well is that generalisation accurate.. :?:

Look at the compliance plate of an air conditioner. There you will find two figures..
One is for the energy consumed by the machine in doing it's thing AMPS. (kwh P=VIT ) and the other is for the energy produced (BTU) ..
Whilst these are different measures of energy, they can be mathematically equated.
GG could - I can't remember.. or be bothered..
My small and cheap unit says 5.2A and 12,000 BTU

The energy difference is not magically produced.. it is stolen from the air or any other medium capable of conducting or moving heat energy. The efficiency of the machine to create this MAGIC, is called COP or COE ... Coefficient of performance or efficiency ..
Purists might tell me if there is any difference, but for the layperson, they are the same.., the efficiency of the process of moving energy. ( it's the only Stealing-Of-Energy ;) that we are allowed to do..)
The question is, if lowering the voltage to the motor, will lower the power to the motor, but maintain the same COP..
IF you lower the voltage, then, will you not also lower the current, and hence the power or the torque of the motor.

So lowering the voltage to your mixmaster blender will lower the torque and thus it's ability to do it's job and then if you try to make it do it's intended job, then you run the risk of damaging the motor.
Conversely, if you have that same motor being driven at excessive voltage, then it will undertake it's job very well, as a motor , but the higher current will create more heat..

My question is still one of how much money I will save on my power bill, from the use of VPhase, a semi constant voltage device.....?
( being 220V from under 247Vac, or otherwise 27V lower than Grid... ie.. 260Vgrid would deliver 233V to the home)

The power packs of "e-machines" will run cooler at 110v compared to 240v, but will it really save money, given the cost of the device. Will the difference be significant between say nominal 250Vgrid and 222V

You would have thought that someone producing, and marketing such a device would have hard facts and figures on all typical devices found in the home.
I would be tempted to do the measurements myself, but why should I have to do it..
(And it would be a very involved process to compare power and function of all machines(devices).)

We have seen the claims from the power factor devices and we know they are meaningless to the home owner, but still they were/are sold to the unsuspecting..
They could be sold as an environment device, because they could be claimed to reduce the amount of generated electricity, but they will never change your power bill.. (and I doubt the amount of COAL burnt)

So the challenge is still there to demonstrate to this doubting Thomas, how this device will truly reduce the typical 2012 power bill..

Oh - and seeing as though we do talk about solar power, here, we do acknowledge that you have to separate the typical lighting and power circuits and ONLY use the VPhase on non heating circuits, so radiators are OUT.. and you would never put one on the whole house and then set up a net-GCI -- wonder what it would do if you did.. and it back fed .... :? ( magic smoke I guess )
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby bjtaudio » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:08 am

I was just thinking about he idea of reducing voltage to 220V to save power. There would be a very small saving in power with 240V incandescent light globes or halogen lamps. It's true most modern appliances with switch mode power supplies like a computer power supply will just simply draw more current to maintain the regulate output.... BUT did you all know that reducing voltage can slightly increase power consumption..

This is how..
Switch mode power supplies become slightly less efficient when more current is needed. This is due to the increased voltage drops associated with the higher current drawn and power loss withing the switching devices and the even the windings of the high Freq. transformer...this is bad..even slightly reduce the life of the power supply due to more heat generated.

Another important point is when cooking food or boiling water, heat is lost during the cooking process through convection. If the rate that energy is delivered is reduced due to under voltage, it will take longer to cook or boil, but worse more energy is actually lost as the process has been slowed down...it actually better to increase voltage than reduce it in this instance to the resistive load.

Did you know incandescent lights are very sensitivity to voltage fluctuations, and even small under voltages will significantly reduce light output. So why not then just use a smaller bulb?

Unfortunately due to the wide range of appliances used, reducing voltage will give mixed results, and this is not the way to save power.
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Tracker » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:23 pm

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All good points and help-full for the uncertain, to accept the reality on VPhase and the likes..

Incandescent Bulbs.... More of rarity these days.. but I actually deliberately use some Par38 Flood Lights in an unusual way.. two in series on 240V...
They don't glow as brightly, and produce a lot of HEAT.. So for some instant comfort in the smallest room in the house in winter, they work well.. Perhaps a little bit brighter than ideal, but not too bad..
The bulbs last well, too..

Our friend has never come back to try and convince us... :lol: ... ;)
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Andrew_electrix » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:01 am

TO provide an alternative points of view on voltage reduction technology:

Induction motors are quite sensitive to voltage variations, the output torque, slip and current of the motor varies with the square of the applied voltage.
Low voltages can cause problems as the breakdown torque is then low enough to stop the motor accelerating to it's operating speed.
Especially with constant torque loads like compressors this can result in the motor stalling drawing it's locked rotor current and burning out.
However high voltages can cause problems as the motor then generate more torque than is required and draws more current than is neccessary.

This is NOT just hypothetical:

We have a L22 (22kW) compair rotary screw air compressor at work, it's being working fine without any problems.
Last year i brought myself a 3 phase clamp meter that can measure power factor kW's, vars and everything.
I did some measurements on all our big machines and was suprised to find that the air compressor was using approx 24kW when on load (actually pumping), this works out to about 35kVA when the power factor is included.

It's is a european machine that is rated for 380-400v 3 phase operation accooding to the manual.
This caught my attention because our mains voltage is quite high some times 435V line to line.

Our european CNC woodwork machines both have 100kVA step down auto transformers delivering 400V out with adjustable taps up to 430V in, to ensure the motors run correctly.

One day when the CNC machines were not in use i disconnected the transformer and wheeled it next door and hooked it up to the air compressor.
The power consumption went down to approx 21.5kW on load with a corresponding reduction in kVA demand.
However the machine was still pumping out air at a similar rate and otherwise working fine but drawing less energy.

Our high mains voltage is exadurating the effect, but there is definitely some energy being wasted.

Even our standard 36W magnetic ballast fluro's are being over driven to a some degree by the extra high voltage.
As i've updated some of the fluro's to Atco tridonic PRO36 electronic ballasts and the lamps are running alot cooler but still generating the same light output...
The total demand in one of our low bake spray booths with 2x 24 fluro lamps on two separate phases went from 6.4 amps to 3.6A on each phase!
This is in part due to the the elimination of the ballst losses which is about 11w per ballast.

Just some obsevrations

regards

Andrew
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby Tracker » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:22 am

Interesting observations, Andrew.

I am interpreting your comments as saying that both high and low voltages are a problem.
And "just right" can vary between device manufacture locations.

Now I am not sure if this has relevance to the issue of the Vphase.. perhaps it does support the value of correct operating voltage.... but what is correct????

As I think I commented earlier.... I use a constant voltage transformer on a test bench, to give greatest stability for the instruments .. clearly, correct voltage is good, and the generalisation of a constant low voltage is best, is likely disproven as being either pointless or dangerous, unless the device is actually designed for that voltage.. IMHO

Thanks for the obs ...
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Re: VPhase - Yet another scam..?????

Postby bjtaudio » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:47 pm

With 3 phase induction motors, made for 380~400V connected to a 435V line to line will waste power as heat, in the motor and is no doubt a waste of power. I'm surprised thou, that the line voltage floated up to that level under a 35kVA load. No doubt a auto-transformer is a good idea to drop the the voltage to the correct level and reduce unwanted heat in the motor.

Anyway, if anyone wants to experiment and try to save a tiny bit of power, you could get a auto-transformer made up for a hundred dollars or so and drop the voltage say 10V to 220V on some appliances. While 220V should be fine just be careful with motors thou such as compressor and pumps all with load on the shaft, as you do not want them to fail to start, and burn out. In Australia the single phase supply voltage range is 230V -6% +10% or 216V~253V In my area It seems to hover around 235V most of the time and drop to 230V during peak load.

From my test most appliances will work ok with voltages at about 200Vac, some can go much lower, some shaded pole motor desk fans will start to spin at just 50V, but is pretty useless as a fan. Some switch mode power supplies will work between 90~260V but this so the appliance can be used anywhere in the world. like a shaver. Best not to try this on your fridge thou as it will burn out the motor as it can stall.

For non electricians be extra careful with mains power, and under voltage on motors.. best of luck. :)
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