LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:09 pm

I think it was a bit more than just a theory... it started with light bulbs, but it is now what much of the business world thrives on.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby zzsstt » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:I think it was a bit more than just a theory... it started with light bulbs, but it is now what much of the business world thrives on.


I suspect it always has been. Some time ago my wife and I were discussing the concept of clothing "fashion", without which clothes would last until they wore out. Add "fashion" and clothes only last a season whether they are worn once or 1000 times. And this has been the case, at least amongst the ruling classes, for centuries.

The only real change is that now we actually have the ability to make things last almost indefinitely, so to keep business moving we have combined the psychological motivator that is "fashion" with the more physical driver of planned obsolesence.

What I find most amusing is that the subject is still lightbulbs, and the advertising used to create the psychological motivation to change is that the new device will last forever, which in complete opposition to the limited life that has actually been designed in to the unit!
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Smurf1976 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:13 pm

zzsstt wrote:As yet I haven't noticed any significant move away from the standard edison screw / bayonet / MR16 / GU10 fittings that have been around for years. I would suggest that only when the manufacturers start pushing new fittings should we believe that the globes might truely last more than a few years!

Go back 30 years and BC was the only fitting most people had ever seen. ES was pretty much restricted to floodlight bulbs etc in the household context. So I'd argue that MR16 and GU10 could both be considered as examples of "new" fittings being introduced.

As for lifespan of bulbs in general, I bought some long life ones for the ceiling fan light when I first moved into this house. They're 141 Watts and rated at 13,500 hours. They're just ordinary incandescent globes (ES fitting) apart from a fairly impressive looking filament inside. Bought them online and they're stamped as Made in USA (they are 240 volt globes). I got them because the ordinary ones I could buy in the shops here kept blowing literally every couple of weeks, and CFL's wont fit in the light fitting so forget those. I can't remember the exact cost but there were 6 in the pack and from memory roughly $50 including postage. Years later and I'm still using the first one. The light is on for typically 3 hours per day. On the downside, 141W is quite a bit of power but it's nice and bright. :D
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby zzsstt » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:53 am

The MR16 fitting was patented in 1967...... GU10 was indeed much later (1990's?), but was introduced basically to support mains voltage MR's and prevent them being interchanged with the 12V MR units (the globes themselves being much the same). It is also the case that globalisation has resulted in things appearing new when they have been in other countries for many years. In the late 1980's IKEA started selling ES lights in the UK and very few people had ever seen them before, though they were the norm in the US. Equally in 1998 I brought a GU10 light to Australia and couldn't buy a globe for it!

Every fitting on the market today has its origins in incandescent lights, and all the LED's are direct replacements for such lights.

When (if?) LED's are produced that genuinely stand a chance of lasting more than a few years, my prediction would be that the globes in lights would cease to be replaceable, or that each new style of luminaire would have a new fitting rendering it incompatible with existing globes. A non-replaceable system would be cheaper to make and would ensure that whilst the light would last for many years, and fashion would determine that the fitting would need to be changed long before the light burnt out. Of course such a system could also be used as a marketing tool to help persuade people that a light would last forever.......

In any case, business must always look after its future, and producing something that nevers wears out and never needs replacing is a sure-fire way to go broke!
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Smurf1976 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:42 pm

zzsstt wrote:When (if?) LED's are produced that genuinely stand a chance of lasting more than a few years, my prediction would be that the globes in lights would cease to be replaceable, or that each new style of luminaire would have a new fitting rendering it incompatible with existing globes.

Agreed there. The whole notion that a lamp (of whatever type) needs to be easily replaceable is based upon the notion that it frequently needs replacing.

We don't have, for example, easily replaceable compressors in fridges or easily replaceable parts on a window frame for the simple reason that they don't require frequent replacement. Whilst replacement can be done, in most cases it isn't and it certainly isn't something you'd do 5 minutes before dinner like you would with changing a globe.
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Quokka2 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:06 am

My minimal experience with LED lights was with a batch of 20 GU10's I bought on eBay.

As recorded in another post, one failed after 20 minutes or so, tripping the ELCB and plunging the whole house into darkness. It was a bugger of a job to find the culprit, as there was no outward sign of any damage from what must have been an internal short.

Curious to hear if anyone else has experienced this problem.
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Thermoelectric » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:23 pm

I find it interesting how they seem to overmarket all these new items on the market, as if they're 100x better than anything before them, like the "LED TV"'s that are being advertised, most places skip the "LCD" part.

Comparing LED's luminous efficacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy) to other forms of lighting, yes, they are reasonably more efficient than the halogens that they may be replacing, but the only brands considered there seem to be Toshiba, Lite Gear and GE, well known brands. If you compare a cheap EBay lamp to these instead, the likelihood that it will outperform halogens by such a significant factor is unlikely.

The same with the page showcasing some LED lights, posted by Tracker early this year

Image

Floodlights being a notable example. They say 60% to 80% less power than high pressure sodium lamps. If you look at the lumens per watt of HPS lamps, they're listed at 85-150lm/W. The closest LED lamp listed was a 5.4W Toshiba lamp, with 101.9 lumens per watt, the rest fell reasonably short. 60% to 80% more efficient? Once they hit the theoretical limit, sure, but that is not even close at the moment.

A lot of false advertising.
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Tracker » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:22 pm

Thermoelectric wrote:The same with the page showcasing some LED lights, posted by Tracker early this year

I just invested in my first led's.

I got some of those in the bottom left..
Ie. The true bulb replacements at 10w.

Very early days, but they work really well.. A comfortable warm white..
I replaced some incandescents at mum's place and some cfl's..
.
cfl - Now there is a disappointment.. they have really failed to live up as a good replacement..

I would like to find some true led spot lights .. ie 5deg.
.
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Tracker » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:52 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:I think it was a bit more than just a theory... it started with light bulbs, but it is now what much of the business world thrives .....


For decades we have heard the comment .... "...and don't ever get rid of this appliance ... they don't make them like this any more..."

Well I can officially say that it IS now true, with appliances like front loader Washing Machines, being economically unserviceable.
The issue is the way they are assembled with some parts being inaccessible .. economically.
But.... do their prices really reflect that issue..

BOSCH.... I heard they laughed at the request for the price of a main control board.... "..but why would you replace it when a new machine is 500..."
Issue - the 5yo original dishwasher cost 1500 and was said to be good for 20 years, made in Germany, and fully integrated. The suggested replacement was Chinese and very plain..
...... the repair cost 450.. the cost to the appearance of the kitchen.... unmeasurable...

Refrigerators and AirConds... If the system has a 'gas' related problem, it's likely unrepairable, in Australia.
Thank Juliar for that, and Her industry destroying carbon tax that has made refrigeration gas so expensive...
China does not pay the tax and so can competitively build a replacement for so very little ...
..
.
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Re: LED Lights, Marketing vs reality. Mk II

Postby Thermoelectric » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:07 pm

Tracker wrote:cfl - Now there is a disappointment.. they have really failed to live up as a good replacement..

I would like to find some true led spot lights .. ie 5deg.
.


What made CFL's so bad? I've had them in our house for quite some time, and they all seem to be lasting quite a while (although no measurements have been made).

I find it interesting why there are so few, if at all LED spot lights with such a narrow angle. If anything they would be easier to make, requiring much less in the way of optics.

Tracker wrote:Refrigerators and AirConds... If the system has a 'gas' related problem, it's likely unrepairable, in Australia.
Thank Juliar for that, and Her industry destroying carbon tax that has made refrigeration gas so expensive...
.


With a few of the cheaper brand fridges (GVA, from The Good Guys for one) I've seen coming from China, it's not the price of gas that makes them unserviceable, but instead the manufacturers are moving to R600a, which I've seen block numerous capillary tubes in small bar fridges. Of course for some fridges that are under $100 you can't expect much more.
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