Smart Meters

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Re: Smart Meters

Postby PeterM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:05 am

Ah, :oops: :oops: A label says the meter is an EM 3330. Would that be right? It has black select buttons on the top right, unlike the red buttons on http://www.landisgyr.com/ap/apps/products/data/pdf1/LG_APAC_EM5100.pdf. There is a clue in the EM5100 spec! Perhaps the individual phase readings are really VAh rather than kWh, even though the display SAYS kWh?
So again, what do the phase readings mean? And are there other functions of the meter that may be useful?
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Re: Smart Meters

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:09 pm

.
The EM3330 is a direct connected three phase meter made by L&G, however I think it is electronic but non-interval, your local distributor would be the best contact to confirm its scrolling display set up, as these are uniquelly programmable.

regards

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Re: Smart Meters

Postby PeterM » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:50 pm

OK Sojin, I will try the distributor. But the meter is supposed to be an interval type. That is the point of the installation.
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Re: Smart Meters

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:55 pm

Peter,

perhaps I am thinking of the EM3100 series, the L&G range is rather wide and the EM series are not Smart Meters in the Victorian context and therefore not getting much use in anycase so other than the EM1210 series I am not across all of their other existing products.

In anycase the local DB or whoever owns the meter will be able to describe their display set up to you.

regards

Sojin
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Re: Smart Meters

Postby PeterM » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:23 pm

I contacted Jemena and got a reply from:

Rob Campbell
Solar Subject Matter Expert
Stakeholder Relations
Jemena


and was told: "Sorry I’m not even sure myself what each register is referring to! I would happily provide the information but response from our metering department is that this is for diagnostic purposes only."

Seems be beyond the ken of mere mortals (customers, or "stakeholders"!)

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Re: Smart Meters

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:49 pm

Peter,

each display has a two digit code displayed on the right hand side, if you list the codes you see as you scroll through I will see if I can make some enquiries myself and identify what each is.

regards

Sojin
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Re: Smart Meters

Postby PeterM » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:10 pm

Thanks Sojin
The display has codes on the left side. The readings today are:

03 total 515.9 kWh (import symbol)
13 total 283.4 kWh (export symbol)

And when I activate Alt mode I get readings:

04 Alt total 515.9 kWh (import symbol)
06 Alt total 283.4 kWh (export symbol)
07 Alt total phase A 154.0 kWh (import symbol)
08 Alt total phase B 336.2 kWh (import symbol)
09 Alt total phase C 84.7 kWh (import symbol)
10 Alt total phase A 0 kWh (export symbol)
11 Alt total phase B 333.0 kWh (export symbol)
12 Alt total phase C 9.5 kWh (export symbol)

and then readings of current and voltage on each phase.

Here is a montage of photos showing readings for Alt 04, 06, 07, 10 taken a bit after the readings quoted above.

EM 3330 Readings.jpg
Photos 12:00 19 August 2010
EM 3330 Readings.jpg (18.69 KiB) Viewed 6690 times
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Re: Smart Meters

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:35 pm

Peter,

on first observation, and without reference to a manual or Jemena specific setup details my view is the following:


03 total 515.9 kWh (import symbol) > This should be your official purchase (consumption) from the Grid
13 total 283.4 kWh (export symbol) > This should be your official sales (generation) to the Grid

As you are likely to be being billed on interval data from the meter those two readings above are not being used for your consumption or FIT billing, however they are accurate and will "equate" to the Interval Data totals.

ie "03" is a cumulative total just constantly adding your house consumption, there is no peak/off-peak detail to its reading.

If you read it in the morning at 12.30am (midnight this morning) and at night at 12.00am (midnight tonight) the change or difference would equal the total of all the 30 minute interval readings (48 in total) in the E data stream in the meter for that same period.

Similarly "13" is a cumulative total of your Net export or generation to the Grid, its 24 hour total would equal the sum of the 48 rows of interval data for the same period.

And when I activate Alt mode I get readings:

04 Alt total 515.9 kWh (import symbol)
06 Alt total 283.4 kWh (export symbol)
07 Alt total phase A 154.0 kWh (import symbol)
08 Alt total phase B 336.2 kWh (import symbol)
09 Alt total phase C 84.7 kWh (import symbol)
10 Alt total phase A 0 kWh (export symbol)
11 Alt total phase B 333.0 kWh (export symbol)
12 Alt total phase C 9.5 kWh (export symbol)

and then readings of current and voltage on each phase.

"04" and "06" simply seem spare registers recording the same information as "03" and "13"

"07", "08" and "09" is the individual phase cumulative totals of consumed energy from the Grid which when added together equal the total of "04" 3 phase value.

ie individual phase consumptions versus the total 3 phase value of consumed energy from the Grid. ie 154+336.2+84.7 = 574.9 the difference to 515.9 is likely to be due to unbalanced or single phase loads across your supply, but I am surprised they are different?




10", "11" and "12" is the individual phase cumulative totals of generated energy to the Grid which when added together relates to the total of "13" 3 phase value.

ie individual phase excess generation versus the total 3 phase value of generated energy to the Grid. ie 0+333.0 +9.5 = 342.5 the difference to 283.4 is also strange, as is the 9.5kW on the blue phase, obviously this does indicate you have a single phase generator fitted to white phase.

It is possible that some of these "Alternate" registers relate to testing loads etc by the Distributor or even manufacturer prior to installation and have not been re-set to zero when the meter config was programmed.

I wouldnt be too concerned by the Alt displays they form no role in the billing or legal metrology certification of the meter.

"03" and "13" are the ones to focus on, and I am very confident changes in these values will equate exactly to relevent totals to the E and B data streams being read as interval data.

Because the retailer can process interval data into any Tariff template they like, ie Flat Rate, 2 rate (peak/Off-peak) Time of Use, 3 rate (peak/shoulder/off-peak) ToU etc the meter and its displays have no idea what peak/offpeak/shoulder etc prices apply or at what time.

The voltages / currents you saw on the remaining displays should be instaneous RMS values.

regards

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Re: Smart Meters

Postby PeterM » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:04 pm

Sojin_Muneshi wrote:
03 total 515.9 kWh (import symbol) > This should be your official purchase (consumption) from the Grid
13 total 283.4 kWh (export symbol) > This should be your official sales (generation) to the Grid

Yes, understand that.

As you are likely to be being billed on interval data from the meter those two readings above are not being used for your consumption or FIT billing, however they are accurate and will "equate" to the Interval Data totals.
ie "03" is a cumulative total just constantly adding your house consumption, there is no peak/off-peak detail to its reading.

Oh. NOW I understand.

"07", "08" and "09" is the individual phase cumulative totals of consumed energy from the Grid which when added together equal the total of "04" 3 phase value.

That is my interpretation.

ie individual phase consumptions versus the total 3 phase value of consumed energy from the Grid. ie 154+336.2+84.7 = 574.9 the difference to 515.9 is likely to be due to unbalanced or single phase loads across your supply, but I am surprised they are different?

And it is this difference that I have been querying and trying to work out whether I understand their meanings!

ie individual phase excess generation versus the total 3 phase value of generated energy to the Grid. ie 0+333.0 +9.5 = 342.5 the difference to 283.4 is also strange, as is the 9.5kW on the blue phase, obviously this does indicate you have a single phase generator fitted to white phase.

Again, the difference is strange. But the 9.5 kWh is OK; that occurred when the solar system was moved from that phase to the current one.

It is possible that some of these "Alternate" registers relate to testing loads etc by the Distributor or even manufacturer prior to installation and have not been re-set to zero when the meter config was programmed.

I discovered them two days after installation, and they were close to zero for the export registers and consistent with daily consumption for the import registers.

I wouldnt be too concerned by the Alt displays they form no role in the billing or legal metrology certification of the meter.

Maybe so, but my questions stand unanswered satisfyingly!

Sojin Muneshi

Thank you very much for your responses and your time!
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Re: Smart Meters

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:38 pm

Peter,

this is not a meter I have any experience with, other than knowing of its functionality etc, after the post above I did ponder why the values "might" be different, "resetting" or "not resetting" being but one possible explanation, I am glad to have helped but was surprised to see these values not equating the 3 phase totals.

It is possible that the per phase accuracy is less than the total 3 phase meter accuracy, as those per phase readings are not a standards requirement and simply a feature created by the manufacturer, therefore with a poorer accuracy the summation error could be explanable?

Other possible explanations could be:

- "04" and "13" are recording real energy (kWh) as the meter and therefore they are required, whereas perhaps the per phase readings are apparant energy (Kvarh) which would explain the higher total, yet you report the display provides the units as "kWh" - so that logical outcome seems unlikely to be correct.

(By setting them at apparant energy the Network is provided with powerfactor related analysis)

- "04" and "13" are recording "50Hz" or "fundamental" real energy (kWh) as the meter and therefore they are required, whereas perhaps the per phase readings are fundamental and harmonic frequency energy (KWh) which would explain the higher total, (Networks are interested in total harmonic content as well but this would be a new way of measuring the presence of harmonics?)

Tomorrow I will PM you privately with two names to ring in Jemena who WILL know the answers or WILL be able to find out and explain it, or WILL want to know why the readings are different, you will need to ring in via the main switchboardand by pass the previous "subject matter expert" who doesnt know and cant find out - smiles.

Give them your NMI, and the meter property number as well as a description similar to the differences highlighted in yesterdays readings.

Obviously if the individual phase and 3 phase registers are set up to read the same units and quantities they should add up! if Jemena have set these registers to be the same - then they should have great interest in the fact they are adding up to different totals -as should L&G! - (it would be worthwhile reading them all at the same time and seeing if their "advancements" over 1 day add up between the individual phases and 3 phases).

please keep us in the loop as to what develops

regards

Sojin Muneshi
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