What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports?

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What do you think is a fair feed in tariff for your renewable energy exports?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:02 pm

No exporting, I'm storing it for my own use!
2
22%
Zero
0
No votes
Market wholesale price (zero to $14/kWh, but mostly under 10c/kWh)
1
11%
5c/kWh
0
No votes
10c/kWh
0
No votes
15c/kWh
2
22%
20c/kWh
0
No votes
Equal to what you pay for it at that time of day, less a small margin for distribution
2
22%
Equal to what you pay for it at that time of day
1
11%
Equal to what you pay for it at that time of day, plus a small incentive for storage
1
11%
 
Total votes : 9

What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports?

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:02 pm

With the looming end of the high feed-in tariffs for many owners of PV systems, there has been plenty of discussion about what constitutes fair price for exported energy. Some people will be going from receiving over 60c/kWh for all the energy their PV system produces to getting nothing at all. The 60c (and similar) schemes were introduced to kick-start the solar industry, at a time when systems were extremely expensive in comparison with today's costs. IMO there is no justification for new system owners to be paid that sort of money any more, but why shouldn't energy producers be paid a fair return. They are clearly doing the environment a favour, by eliminating some fossil fuel burning, which has benefits for all Australians in reduced health costs, costs that the public have to bear, as it is not taken into account or paid for by the owners of coal-fired power stations. They are also reducing the huge demand peaks on the national grid, lowering the cost of electricity for all in the process. These peaks only occur for a few tens of hours per year, generally in wide-spread heat waves where air conditioner usage ramps up the load on the grid. Peak wholesale electricity costs can hit $14000/MWh ($14/kWh)! and this is when the big generators make much of their annual income. Solar and wind power is clearly eating into the profits of coal and gas fired generators, so there is a lot of resistance from them- renewable energy with zero marginal cost input doesn't sit well with their business model!

While there is a suggested minimum of around 6c/kWh in NSW at least, it is not compulsory, and plenty of people currently receive no payment for their exported energy. This certainly strikes me as seriously unfair, when the electricity comapny can sell the energy to the next door neighbour for over 50c/kWh, utilising just a few metres of pre-existing cable, so there is no real cost to them, just pure profit.

So, what do you think is a reasonable payment for a unit of electricity to the homeowner with a PV system on their roof, who exports the energy they don't use themselves? Please indicate your preference in the poll.
I've allowed re-voting in case you change your mind after hte discussion progresses.

Solar Citizens* are running a campaign for a fair FiT here:
http://www.solarcitizens.org.au/fairprice

*Disclosure - Energy Matters is a supporter of Solar Citizens, but please don't let that influence your choice!
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby davidg » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:59 pm

"Equal to what you pay for it at that time of day, less a small margin for distribution"

This I suggest is nearly right. It leaves out a margin for the retailer, which I'd suggest is not unreasonable in the current structure (almost a pyramid scheme). I really hate the current electrical supply retailers, but since we have this inherently broken system, they also have to make some money to exist as well.
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby australsolarier » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:25 am

equal, less small contribution ,,,
yes, but the retailer can sell that as renewable energy and usually pockets a higher rate anyway.

there are also some plans in other countries "microgridding". for example you sell your excess to your neighbour via a smart phone app. which should make both parties happy. and the big bad retailer unhappy.

in the long run it looks like islanding is probably the only solution here in australia. no gst, no hassle with the distrubitor, no bills, plus you have untaxed income, no asset testing. and possibly more reliable power.
i think the official renewable energy future here in australia will take a long time to come. so it has to come from the grass roots. so to speak bypassing the the coal mines and generators. i think they probably rather overthrow a legal government, than change into renewables.

i still think in the long run you will have a better return on an island system than having the money in super. and it looks like the price for the batteries will probably get lower.
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby bashworth » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:51 pm

I voted for the wholesale rate.

After all I'm just another generator putting power into the grid.
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:06 pm

More discussion on The Conversation here:
https://theconversation.com/to-pay-sola ... olar-67150
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby jaahn » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:04 am

Hi :)
Of course there are multiple points of view, depending on where you sit. I think in the absence of ANY leadership on the issue it will be driven by the generators for their benefit. So pay out very minimal rates and discourage the punters who disrupt their profitable business model.

However I do believe they see the future is actually having independent home generation and storage as a viable tool they can use to 'shave' the peaks and save themselves money and investment capital. So they may be ameanable to getting the punters to get the solar on the roof and a battery in the garage, at no capital cost to themselves. Then they can offer incentives to put the private systems under their control. SMART GRID.

So with a bit of leadership from the government the generators would up the payments a bit for their own and your advantage. Shame about the government drones "we" voted in. :evil:
Jaahn

PS I see the Badgerys Creek airport has finally been approved. The Federal Government has dragged it's feet on this for 50 ? years. It could have had this in place for a couple of million a long time ago. So as an example of foward thinking decision making it does not look good for energy policy !! :shock:
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby jules » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:53 am

equal + a couple of cents.

I notice that there's a suggestion now that we need more poles and wires in the form of interstate links to guard against major power shortages like the recent SA one. The alternative would seem to be [am I wrong?] to encourage more local rooftop solar along with battery storage so that local systems would buffer the grid. Hence the "+ a couple of cents" as incentive. There might be other more specific ways to encourage batteries but surely we need incentives rather than dis-incentives for the good of our national grid? After the disastrous and wasteful NSW poles and wires experience I'm doubtful of claims that our Aus. grid system is ageing and in need of billions of $ of upgrading.
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:30 am

Yes it appears they want to perpetuate the old centralised generation type grid and spend massive amounts on more poles and wires - ie basically maintain the status quo. They seem to be in denial of the considerable advantages of distributed renewable generation and storage. I guess they don't like anything that puts more control in the hands of the consumer at the expense of the existing system's various antiquated business models.

EDIT, I just added one more option to cover Jules' suggestion, but it has wiped out all the earlier votes, so please vote again!
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby jaahn » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:53 pm

Hi :)
I tried to vote again but it blocked me :evil:

I believe the engineers and technical side of generation is certainly not in denial about the changes that may work and be beneficial. However the managers(?) know that they can cry poor and plead the end is nigh etc etc :cry: then wine and dine the pollies and give out directorships etc and Bobs their uncle !! A tried and proven method in Australia.
A vision for the future is sadly lacking in recent years and totally missing in action currently :oops:
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Re: What is a fair and reasonable payment for energy exports

Postby APR » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:26 pm

I believe solar PV should be the sole domain of residential dwellings, commercial buildings, and factories. Commercial solar farms, built solely for the purpose of feeding to the grid, should not be given any incentives or subsidies, and any investors looking at large scale solar should be redirected to put their money into solar thermal power, or other renewables that will provide energy overnight.

At some point in the future, renewable energy may be over produced, especially around midday on sunny days. I fully expect that residential customers will be the first to have exports limited when this occurs, hence the requirement now for inverters to be able to be made demand management compatible.

Until renewables are saturating our electricity supply, I believe it is appropriate that our daytime FIT should be very similar to what we pay for offpeak electricity, but at some time in the future I can see the FIT being pretty mundane

Currently I am getting 10 cents/kWh. I would like 15 cents, but I cannot see that happening let alone anything higher.
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