Energy Matters Forums

[Tracker]

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WOW.. .. Wot-a-bucket-of-worms...

It's interesting that inspections are going on as we speak (in NSW ) and installers are being criticised ( ?? held liable..? ) for failing to advise customers correctly and for not providing all the statutory paperwork to the customer.
I can't help the feeling that the supplier/installer, in this case, has a deal to answer for.
Unfortunately, it clearly leaves the customer holding the baby, with no way to turn, IF the installer cannot be found and made liable, and they will not be rushing to the front, as their job was just to do the physical installation..

How much of this stems from Agents, selling systems and contracting Installers to actually do the work.
Again, I suggest that the INSTALLER is totally responsible, but they would like to think that the AGENT was responsible for most of the "Administrative" paperwork..

Bottom Line - No One Wins..
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[Sojin_Muneshi]

Winston

overall you are correct that the solar/energy industry and government should have ensured more information was provided to you to navigate what is a very complex process, the primary person however was your installer and supplier of the system, by the time UE are involved it is assumed you have bought a system, had it installed and be advised of all the requirements by your accredited installer.

While the Government DPI website and Distributor websites have tons of information if you go looking, the best person to provide the information is the person installing the system, and of course ideally they should refer you to those other public sources of information, identify and estimate these additional on-grid costs at the time of sale, and provide information on completing the process of connection and approval once the system is installed.

However If you can convince EWOV that UE's letter is deficient (I havent seen it) then good luck to you.

I personally would be chasing the sub-contractor installer for details of the original CES and the LEI involved in it. (I am confident one would have been done, but apparantly not lodged) if you can locate the LEI and confirm the CES was registered with ESV you should be able to produce a copy to UE and avoid any additional work to your system or a second CES, the LEI can advise you the options forward.

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How much of this stems from Agents, selling systems and contracting Installers to actually do the work.
Again, I suggest that the INSTALLER is totally responsible, but they would like to think that the AGENT was responsible for most of the "Administrative" paperwork..
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Tracker, thats a big part of the problem, a sales person who doesnt know of, or doesnt mention the "on-grid" costs, so as to keep the price down and close the deal, an accredited installer remote from the site who actually subcontracts to many others and then signs off the paperwork, and sub-contractors/LEIs who might take ages to get the paperwork completed and back to the admin people (if there are any) to process/submit to the appropriate places, and of course, little or no information left with the customer to explain the next steps to getting connected, just a warrantee form and details on how to maintain the panels and isolate the inverter.

- I knew of one solar installer who got them back from the LEI and drove around with hundreds of them in his ute, simply focusing on getting the next installation on the roof physically and not finalising the paperwork from the last one, of course all his customers were blaming the retailer or distributor for holding things up - they actually knew nothing about his jobs as no paperwork had been submitted.

I am aware of jobs sitting in this state for over 12 months, I actually know of people who missed out on the PFIT because their supplier/installer didnt submit any of the paperwork, and didnt tell the customer there were any more steps (or costs) to getting connected. Similar to Winston they simply watched their old meter going backwards and either waited for their Smart meter to be rolled out (on advice of their installer to avoid paying at the time of solar installation) or waited for their 60c payments for PFIT to start showing up in their bills assuming everything was completed.

(This experience is why I have a very good idea of the likely outcomes of an EWOV complaint)

regards

Sojin Muneshi

[Winston Smith]

I noticed in a letter from 'Jemena Network Services' on behalf of 'United Energy Distribution PL', that they have "received the relevant electrical paperwork and service order from your Retailer" (Do they mean AGL, the installer or the company I bought the system off?). They must have known a pv system was connected then? Wouldn't they contact me to alert me to the legal obligation to change the meter? We spoke too them about getting a new meter and there was no mention of any obligation to change the meter. The service desk at Jemena even told us that there was no urgency but it would need to be changed at some point. I'm not an idiot, for a start I don't do things that would void my insurance policies. It seems odd that a process can just hang like that.

LEI? Licensed electrical inspector? They are independent of the installer (REC)? Do they need to inspect installation before the system is connected to the grid? If so, he would have seen the old style meter? That would indicate the old meters are not a safety issue?

Are systems that were installed under the old standards required to be updated? How dangerous is an unearthed system and why do the old breakers need replacing?

[Smurf1976]

Are systems that were installed under the old standards required to be updated? How dangerous is an unearthed system and why do the old breakers need replacing?

Any Australian Standard, and most other official standards, apply at the time of production or installation and are not retrospective.

So a 1985 Holden Commodore (for example) must comply with the relevant Standards applying to motor vehicles in 1985. But it does not need to be modified in order to comply with 2012 Standards and can still legally be driven, even though it would be illegal to sell that car as a new model today (since it does not comply with current Standards). Note that I'm using the Holden as an example only and the same goes for practically every car on the road - old models in general would not pass current Standards requirements.

The same applies to electrical work. My house was built in 1995 and (presumably) complies with the Standards of the day, that being AS3000-1991 from memory. There is no requirement for me to update anything to comply with current Standards, but any new electrical work or modifications must meet 2012 requirements.

Earthing - not dangerous at all if you have an inverter with a transformer. For a transformerless inverter the panels should be earthed however not due to the risk of electric shock per se, but due to the risk that someone who gets a tingle may fall off the roof etc as a result. I have two systems, both using inverters with transformers, and I am quite happy for them to be unearthed. I would however earth them as a precaution if I switched to a transformerless inverter.

Circuit breakers - the issue is that many installers either wired them incorrectly and/or used breakers that were under rated for the use to which they were put. Whether or not yours would be a problem is something that would need to be checked - maybe OK, maybe not. Incorrectly wired circuit breakers are a definite safety hazard and can easily start a fire if switched off under load.

[Winston Smith]

OK, thanks for clarification Smurf.

I've spent some time looking at the links that Sojin provided regarding relevant guidelines and regulations but I can't find any mention of the time frame in which the new meters must be installed after the PV system is installed. Does anyone know?

[Tracker]

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I can't find any mention of the time frame in which the new meters must be installed

I must admit that I have not noticed a time-frame, but also understand that it is ILLEGAL to have the system connected to the GRID, without it being FIRST "Approved".
That means that it has to have it's paperwork in.. and if the normal program was followed, the customer (YOU) would be bloody keen to get the system working, and so would surely be pestering the SELLER..
BUT -- Because it is all up and running and the meter is going south, your in no rush..

Is that a pretty accurate asessment
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[Winston Smith]

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I can't find any mention of the time frame in which the new meters must be installed

I must admit that I have not noticed a time-frame, but also understand that it is ILLEGAL to have the system connected to the GRID, without it being FIRST "Approved".
That means that it has to have it's paperwork in.. and if the normal program was followed, the customer (YOU) would be bloody keen to get the system working, and so would surely be pestering the SELLER..
BUT -- Because it is all up and running and the meter is going south, your in no rush..

Is that a pretty accurate asessment
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Not really. I thought I had fulfilled my obligations.

As I pointed out, I wouldn't knowingly or intentionally void my insurance policy (which costs about $1K pa and protects me against about a half mil in losses) to save a couple of hundred bucks. Further to that, why would I want to expose myself to possibly massive financial liabilities beyond any personal losses?

(that doesn't change the fact that I reckon the way the proposed meter installation was put to me was a double dip - but that's a fight I would have had then if I'd known I had a legal obligation to pay that fee)

I'm left wondering why the letter from Jemena and the outline of "customer obligations" provided by UED didn't clearly articulate that I had a legal obligation to change the meter...(within the non-specified time frame).

I just expected professionalism and clear communication. Did I set out to save money? Yes. Did I set out to rort the system? No.

Gawd help us if we have to self-educate on the intricacies of every regulatory system before buying anything!

[Tracker]

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Yes to all you say...
SOMEONE connected the system to the power..
I UNDERSTAND that this was/is illegal..
Had this connection NOT been made, then you would have surely been forced to learn what was needed, the hard way..

I think that I recall you saying that someone inspected the system..
I therefore wonder why they did not report the lack of paperwork..

Did I set out to save money? Yes....... Did I set out to rort the system? No.

BUT - the question remains - WHO suggested connecting the system to the grid, leaving the existing meter, and (we assume) wait for the roll-out of the Smart-Meters to your area..?
YES - I do know of installations where the meter has NOT been changed, but the customer "Arranged" Grid-Connection, and they know that it NOT correct, but they are achieving their goal - the meter goes SOUTH..
BUT - they DO know that their system is NOT right/legal..

Bottom Line - I don't see too many of the parties involved, running to help you.. ... someone's gamble did not pay-out..

I think it has been fully covered, and only time will se a resolution..

Sorry ..
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[Winston Smith]

On Monday I'd just crossed all the i's and dotted the t's on the complaint when I decided to have one last crack at solving this without lodging the complaint.

I rang Jemena and they said they'd sent the paperwork back to AGL but the young fella sent me an "Existing Solar Photovoltaic (PV) System Connection Form" and said I'd need a Works Request from AGL.

So I spoke to AGL again and said I needed a "Works Request" to have my smart meter configured for my solar PV system. I have to say my partial industrial deafness doesn't help when you're trying to talk to someone with a thickish Filipino (?) accent who sounded like she was in a hall with about 400 other people.

She said said she'd just check for the CoES and the other paperwork...Here we go again I thought...

"The paperwork is good. You'll just need to fill in the TFIT form" She sent me the form.

I've filled them both in and sent them back. No word yet but I'm optimistic common sense will prevail. Could a couple of weeks of me arcing up have been avoided after all?

[Privatteer]

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Yes to all you say...
SOMEONE connected the system to the power..
I UNDERSTAND that this was/is illegal..

While the energy providers have their little rules about upgrading the meter the approval process for the solar system and connection to the grid is a standalone process.