Energy Matters Forums

[Tracker]

Tracker, I'm now totally lost ... it seems that you can only read/record 1 set of numbers (say in a 24 hour period), whereas I can read/record 3 sets of numbers for the same timeframe .....

I know what I mean , so whats up....

There were two complaints that I was raising.
First - Barry told us clearly that we could change back from TOU to FIXED..... He may have said it, but it's untrue.. a lie.... unless you are with AUSGRID..
If you are with ANY other retailer, then AUSGRID will send TOU data to them and they WILL bill you for TOU.
At this time, AUSGRID will not convert TOU data to FIXED and send it to other retailers, as they would for themselves..
Either Barry lied, or Ausgrid is not implementing a decision of Govt.
and - if we do not complain, then they will do nothing about it

The other complaint is that issue of Country Energy folk and Victorians and ????, have meters that display the four general Daily readings for TOTAL-ENERGY, Off-Peak, Shoulder and Peak data.
and my gripe is -- What's wrong with AUSGRID that they think we have no right to that data..?
It seems that once you have SOLAR POWER, you lose rights !
..
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[Sojin_Muneshi]

The EM1000 is an electronic meter and is "capable" of both bi-directional and interval data configuration although most are installed as register (type 6 basic read meters) hence most show ToU tariff structures as type 6 meters are required to do.

The EM1000 is NOT a smart meter in terms of the Victorian rollout, it does not have a number of the features required of the Victorian Smart Meter functional specification, interstate some participants are calling these "smart meters" as a "keep up with the joneses" but its not a Smart meter.

regards

Sojin Muneshi

[Tracker]

The EM1000 is an electronic meter and is "capable" of both bi-directional and interval data configuration although most are installed as register (type 6 basic read meters) hence most show ToU tariff structures as type 6 meters are required to do.

Thanks SOLJIN.. I was wondering where you were..
BUT - my question remains unanswered.. " In NSW, can/could my EM1000 actually display the DAILY totals of... Peak, Shoulder, Off-Peak and perhaps TOTAL" as the same meter does in Victoria.

The EM1000 is NOT a smart meter in terms of the Victorian rollout

I must admit to having no real idea of what a SMART meter actually is.. How SMART must it really be..?

Is the EM1000 in Vic.. the same EM1000 as in NSW.. ( where mine is an LnG EM1000 Rev0309 )
Should they be capable of showing the same data

A brief definition of a smart meter as per Australian standards, would be appreciated..
I reckon that a smart meter is one that gives US, the users, the ability to view usage data.
I think that in other areas, smart-meters can be used to remotely control circuits (ie.. Off-Peak Water ) and even the entire supply, eg. load shed, and then naturally , remote reading.

Don't forget that we poor mortals don't know what a TYPE6 meter actually is..

We appreciate your thoughts..
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[gyro]

I recently had Energy Australia come in and test the meters in my power box (aparently they do this every 12 months). He was amazed and puzzled by the gadgetry I have had installed to record everything that is happening in there. My computer records all input/output data via a modem connected to recording devices I had installed. My grid-tie inverter is also connected to my computer so I can actively compare results from both ends. On the wall next to my computer I have also several gauges (1) amperage input from solar panels (2) amperage used by household (2) battery Voltage (4) inverter/charger real time monitor with control switch, also on the same wall is the "WELLSEE" solar controller which has 3 LED lights one which changes colour depending on battery power level. There are many monitoring gagets available so it should not be hard to check your useage.

[president_ltd]

Elsewhere (I can't remember where) I mentioned that in Vic.. their smart meters, displays TOU (Time Of Use) data , and in NSW, we do not, and as such we can't see just how we are travelling with power usage.

actually, you've been misled if you believe in Vic the 'full' ToU meter data is available on the LCD display of a meter. in some distributors in Vic it is (e.g. i think PowerCor? or maybe SP AusNet areas), but in area covered by UE/Jemena it is not.

all they do is have one register for 'import' (register 03) and one register for 'export' (register 13).

the 'import' component is a single ever-increasing "odometer" reading and does not represent the 30-minute interval data that the meter is collecting and what is postprocessed (at the back end database) to produce a peak/offpeak or peak/shoulder/offpeak ToU data.
(the actual interval data is referred to as the NEM12 E3 data stream [imports] and B3 data stream [exports]).
one cannot 'see' that at the meter on any LCD display.

is the meter smart enough that it _could_ be programmed to record each ToU segment into a different register? yes, of course.
but i guess they choose not to do this because it will enable changing of tariff times in future without having to reprogramme meters.

my guess is whomever sets up the meter in NSW is doing the same, for the same reason(s)....


what you CAN do in Vic is insist to your energy retailer that you wish to receive a copy of your NEM12 interval data and they MUST do that for you at least once/year at no charge.
its really good data to have, because you can crunch any sums on what plan(s) make the most sense for your given import+export.

[Sojin_Muneshi]

The Email/Ampy EM1200 and EM1000 are electronic meters used across Australia.

They are NOT Smart Meters in terms of all the features detailed in either the Victorian Smart Meter Rollout or the National project.

They are capable of operation as Interval Meters (type 5) , or Basic register/display (type 6) meters.

Basic Type 6 meters calculate the tariff "in" the meter by recording consumption onto internal cumulative registers that are displayed on the meter, these are read manually by the distributor and form the basis of the bill.

A flat rate tariff has a single register/display
A Time of Use tariff will have a register/display for each component ie Peak/Off-peak and Shoulder if present.

A retailer CANNOT apply any different tariff to that set by the type 6 meter, and a customer moving from flat rate to ToU would need a meter reprogrammed or replaced (1 rate electromechanical meters cannot be reprogrammed to do ToU, but electronic meters such as the EM1000 can).

Type 5 Interval meters do NOT calculate the tariff, they simply measure and record consumption (the true purpose of a meter). Interval data is measured over 30 minute periods and a total of 48 stored per day, (adding them up gives the total consumption for the 24 hours of the day).

A retailer processes the interval data into what ever tariff structure they have contracted with the customer - flat rate, 5 day ToU (P/OP) or (P/S/OP) 7 day ToU - Seasonal ToU, Critical Peak ToU, Interruptable ToU - these are all able to be designed and billed by the retailer without replacement or reprogramming of the meter.

A Type 5 Interval meter is required to record and display its total cumulative consumption on a local display, it obviously cant display the retailers tariff breakdown since its not calculating it.

EM1000s and EM1200s can be used by Distributors in either type 5 (Interval) or type 6 (Basic) modes of operation, those with ToU tariffs on a type 6 configured meter will see their P/OP on the meter, those with ToU tariffs on a type 5 interval meter will NOT see their P/OP on the meter.

EM1000s and EM1200s are interval capable meters but are NOT Smart Meters given they lack many other functionality as defined by the Victorian and National Smart Meter specifications.

All Victorian Smart Meters are required by law to operate as type 5 Interval Meters hence they are not calculating or defining the retail tariff in the meter, and are required by law to display the total cumulative consumption. (but again not the ToU for the reason above that the tariff is calculated in the retailers IT system not the meter).

The above might explain the apparant contradictive experiences of various people with the same meter, and explain the issue the Minister is struggling to present.

As stated earlier, the best way to audit usage and bill accuracy of an Interval meter is to access the NEM12 Interval data and assess it in a Spreadsheet or custom software.

It also allows comparison of alternative tariff structures and prices and to consider usage patterns to shift loads into lower priced periods, this is not able to be done with type 6 basic reads.

regards

Sojin Muneshi

[Tracker]

They are NOT Smart Meters in terms of all the features detailed in either the Victorian Smart Meter Rollout or the National project.

We do tend to bandy the terms around a bit.. To the average person, anything "Smarter" than a spinning-meter, is SMART.
I assume , from what you say, that the EM1000 simply has the TOU registers and just increments those registers each day. ie. it can't tell me how much PEAK power was used between 1300 and 1400 on Dec 20th.
OR, they measure consumption within the 48 periods and total during those periods each day..
OR - are you saying that there are 48 periods for EACH day of the bill.
It's only general interest

but, my gripe is still there.. If it has the four (assumed) registers of TOTAL, PEAK, SHOULDER and OFF-PEAK, then why can't they allow us to press the button and scroll thru those registers, as (again) I understand they can do in
If it has 48 period readings, then that is a bit much to read each day.

BUT - go back to the complaint of (say) AGL refusing to switch from TOU to Flat-Rate.
Would it not be a simple case of AGL saying to AUSGRID.. DO IT !
If AUSGRID will do it for their customers, then they should be able to do it for ANY customer.

Again, I understand that an AUSGRID contractor downloads the data and AUSGRID then sends the data to (say) AGL, who (we presume) pays for the power at their contracted rates and charges us accordingly.

Why can't AUSGRID just add the 48 periods together to give a single figure (or 3 periods for PEAK etc,.)
It just does not seem like it'sa rocket science, and that someone is playing difficult

A retailer processes the interval data into what ever tariff structure they have contracted with the customer - flat rate, 5 day ToU (P/OP) or (P/S/OP) 7 day ToU - Seasonal ToU, Critical Peak ToU, Interruptable ToU - these are all able to be designed and billed by the retailer without replacement or reprogramming of the meter.

So is this the answer ?
THEY (any retailer) CAN do the crunching and convert INTERVAL data to say FIXED, but they claim that they cannot.
Would there be greater profit in charging TOU or Fixed-Rate - I wonder ?
AGAIN - I don't wish to change, but I know folk who regret going to TOU.. This affects retired folk more, as they are home on those hot summer afternoons..

I can't remember where you hail from! So are you talking with experience for NSW..? I wonder how we "Argue" with them and say "YES-You Can"..
How can you tell if your meter is programmed as a 5 or a 6 ?

Thanks for the clearer explanation.. and

a merry and safe Christmas to all.
..
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[Sojin_Muneshi]

I assume , from what you say, that the EM1000 simply has the TOU registers and just increments those registers each day. ie. it can't tell me how much PEAK power was used between 1300 and 1400 on Dec 20th.
OR, they measure consumption within the 48 periods and total during those periods each day..
OR - are you saying that there are 48 periods for EACH day of the bill.
It's only general interest.

A Smart Meter has:
Interval Data
Bi-directional capability
Remote Comms interface
IHD interface
Remote Connect / Disconnect
Quality of Supply

The EM1000 & EM1200 are interval data capable electronic meters but have none of the other features.

but, my gripe is still there.. If it has the four (assumed) registers of TOTAL, PEAK, SHOULDER and OFF-PEAK, then why can't they allow us to press the button and scroll thru those registers, as (again) I understand they can do in
If it has 48 period readings, then that is a bit much to read each day..

If the EM1000/1200 meter you have is set up and operating as a "basic read or type 6 meter" then those four ToU registers are in the meter and you will be able to read them.

If the EM1000/1200 meter you have is set up and operating as a "interval read or type 5 meter" then those four registers are calculated in the retailers IT computer system and NOT in the meter and you will NOT be able to read them, ie the meter will only have one cumulative total display, not the ToU tariff displays.

BUT - go back to the complaint of (say) AGL refusing to switch from TOU to Flat-Rate.
Would it not be a simple case of AGL saying to AUSGRID.. DO IT !
If AUSGRID will do it for their customers, then they should be able to do it for ANY customer...

Ausgrid will not move a customer back from ToU to flat rate, (these are closed off tariffs only accessible to customers already on them) nor will they move an interval meter (type 5) back to a basic meter (type 6) (government regulation precludes it)

Again, I understand that an AUSGRID contractor downloads the data and AUSGRID then sends the data to (say) AGL, who (we presume) pays for the power at their contracted rates and charges us accordingly....

Exactly, and AGL pay Ausgrid for delivering the energy on a Network ToU tariff, hence the preference by AGL to mimic that tariff with a Retail ToU Tariff.

Why can't AUSGRID just add the 48 periods together to give a single figure (or 3 periods for PEAK etc,.)
It just does not seem like it'sa rocket science, and that someone is playing difficult ....

The type 5 Interval Meter just records consumption on 30 minute periods, it doesnt know the retail tariff structure and so cant add it up into peak/shoulder/offpeak, (thats done by the retailers IT and billing system, and can be processed into any other wierd and wonderful tariff that the retailer/customer has agreed on).

If it did then there wouldnt be a need for the interval data and the retailers billing system to calculate tariffs and instead it would be a type 6 basic meter and each time the customer/retailer wanted the tariff changed the meter would be re-programmed or replaced (been there - done that).

A retailer processes the interval data into what ever tariff structure they have contracted with the customer - flat rate, 5 day ToU (P/OP) or (P/S/OP) 7 day ToU - Seasonal ToU, Critical Peak ToU, Interruptable ToU - these are all able to be designed and billed by the retailer without replacement or reprogramming of the meter
********
So is this the answer ?
THEY (any retailer) CAN do the crunching and convert INTERVAL data to say FIXED, but they claim that they cannot.
Would there be greater profit in charging TOU or Fixed-Rate - I wonder ?
AGAIN - I don't wish to change, but I know folk who regret going to TOU.. This affects retired folk more, as they are home on those hot summer afternoons...

Yes they CAN do it, but most dont, for two reasons:
1. Their IT systems are structured to mimic the underlying Network Tariff (this was forced under type 6 metering and their systems may not yet have the flexibility "not to do it")
2. There is a margin risk that a customer using lots of peak on the Network tariff (and wholesale market) but buying on flat retail tariff will cause the retailer to be loosing money, the practice has been to inflate the flat rate to ensure the retailer always "wins", (hence a fairly designed ToU should always be cheaper overall than a fairly designed Flat rate since the Flat rate has a hedge against the unknown load shape risk. ie various customers could be using everything at peak, versus others using everything at off-peak)

I dont actually think retired folk are "always worse off" on ToU, ACOSS have made those claims but no one has actually studied the true outcomes, you need interval data to do that.

Certainly I consider Solar Customers (on a Net export metering arrangement at least) are far better off on ToU than flat rate, they avoid import at the higher price and then access lower price over night when they have to import.

Of course these comparisons depend on the retailers various offerings.

My experiences are Victorian based with a 2 part (peak/off-peak) 5 day ToU, an example I have studied with my mums installation (an 80+YO stay at home pensioner) with Lumo offers 24c peak M-F 7-11 and 10c off-peak M-F 11-7 and ALL WEEKEND, as compared to her existing flat rate of 20c "24/7"

Interestingly we moved her from Simply Energy as they were only willing to offer the above ToU prices for an SFIT (one for one) solar feed in, and wanted to apply 29c peak and 11c off-peak for PFIT. (certainly that was a rip-off as Lumo's alternative offer proves.

Under the Lumo ToU thats a 4c increase over 80 hours of the week, and a 10c reduction over 88 hours of the week compared to a 20c flat rate. Of course stay at home pensioners might have a lot of daytime/evening load at 24c M-F but then there is two days of the weekend when thats half price at 10c. Fridges and standby (base load) will actually be cheaper over the 7 days in this example, and moving clothes washing, ironing, clothes drying, arc welding, etc to the weekend will make 50% savings.

Airconditioning will be higher at 4c for 5/7 of the week and 10c lower for 2/7 of the week, I personally think that balances each other out, subject to what days of the week are hot!

I can't remember where you hail from! So are you talking with experience for NSW..? I wonder how we "Argue" with them and say "YES-You Can"..
How can you tell if your meter is programmed as a 5 or a 6 ?

Thanks for the clearer explanation.. and

a merry and safe Christmas to all.
..
.

I'm in Victoria but these are National market rules and standard metering and tariff issues.

your retailer, but definately your distributor, can advise if you are on a type 5 or type 6 meter.

Merry Xmas

Sojin Muneshi