Energy Matters Forums

[conklinc]

I just read through the posts on Origin not giving the full FIT unless a premium contract is signed. These posts occurred between Feb. and May of this year. Several people complained to the Ombo. Has the issue been resolved? I was given the run around by Origin and United/Jemena for several weeks and supposedly have an Smart meter install date for 8 days from now. I am wondering if I need the "wet ink" contract to get the premium FIT? We were told it would be automatic once the meter is in. Forgive me but I am just a tad bit skeptial

[conklinc]

Replying to my own post. I just got off the phone two hours ago with Origin using the 132 461 number the Ombudsmen tells you to call when you complain. Origin on THIS number told me indeed, I need to sign a new "wet ink" contract with them, and that my per kWh use of electricity off the grid would go up from the current green rate of 17.9 cents to 29 cents a kWh. Last week I received a lovely letter from Origin saying that the green energy rate of 17.9 cents goes up on the 24th of Nov. to 21.1838 cents. In addition the "Supply Charge" went up from 43.23803 cents per day, while the "metering charge went up. to 21.318 at the same time. I didn't think to ask Origin this morning what the supply and metering charge is for the PFIT customers.

So, it seems to me that Origin and probably the other retailers and distributors are simply trying to get their money back by having a separate kWh fee schedule for people intelligent enough to invest in solar and thus lower their costs while at the same time lowering their carbon footprint.

I just retired and moved here from the States. I know that if an electricity provider tried to pull a stunt like this they'd be hit with a class action lawsuit before the ink on the effort was even dry. I'm wondering if we solar enthusiasts ought not to do the same thing. It seems to me that the electricity providers are blatantly trying to subvert the whole purpose and meaning of the new laws creating the FIT, the REC's and personal generation of electricity.

At the very least people who only got the 23 cents per kWh off their bill ought to receive the full benefit because Origin knew full well they were generating electricity. This kind of thing reminds me of the famous quote by Chairman Mao, back in the 60's, when he described our western economic system: "Capitalist Running Dogs."

There really is no way of really knowing whether or not you are on the 66 cents per hour up-grid rate until you get your next bill. From now on, I am getting the name and recording the time each conversation I have with "the dogs."

Anybody with similar experiences? Dumb question, I know.

[Sojin_Muneshi]

So, it seems to me that Origin and probably the other retailers and distributors are simply trying to get their money back by having a separate kWh fee schedule for people intelligent enough to invest in solar and thus lower their costs while at the same time lowering their carbon footprint.

I just retired and moved here from the States. I know that if an electricity provider tried to pull a stunt like this they'd be hit with a class action lawsuit before the ink on the effort was even dry. I'm wondering if we solar enthusiasts ought not to do the same thing. It seems to me that the electricity providers are blatantly trying to subvert the whole purpose and meaning of the new laws creating the FIT, the REC's and personal generation of electricity.

At the very least people who only got the 23 cents per kWh off their bill ought to receive the full benefit because Origin knew full well they were generating electricity. This kind of thing reminds me of the famous quote by Chairman Mao, back in the 60's, when he described our western economic system: "Capitalist Running Dogs."

"Velcum to Orstraya Comrade"

smiles, the privatised and dis-aggregated competitive model of Electricity Industry we enjoy here in Victoria is a direct product of the export of "Reaganomics" from the USA in the 1980s, not that it was ever implemented in the USA itself.

You have brought a solar system from a seller who appearantly has told you "it would be automatic once the meter is in" where as unless you apply to 'a retailer" and "sign a contract" for someone to buy your excess electricity nothing will be automatic, not even the installation of the meter.

Most retailers will connect a customer or switch a customer from other retailers or other tariffs based on a verbal contract recorded over the phone, however the issues, complexities of the PFIT cause most to require a hard copy contract with wet signature to be implemented.

Various retailers are offering various pricing and conditions for their PFIT arrangements including revised consumption tariff pricing, if you dont like Origin's then shop around for another - thats free enterprise and competition, the alternative would be to buy it off only one retailer, owned by the government (socialism or even communism smiles).

There are two Feed in Tariffs in Victoria, the Standard Feed In Tariff is an ongoing tariff available for all, the Premium Feed in Tariff is a limited availability with conditions arrangement that is heavily subsidised by your neighbours, the distributors and retailers are not funding it, and are therefore not motivated to subvert it.

The PFIT is going to close to new customers when the capacity reaches 100MW, (as has recently happened in NSW) at that time others will not be able to access the 60c price for export of excess generation, while those who sign the wet contracts will be accessing that price for the next 15 years.

We have regulation in place to ensure those arrangements are complied with, the need to resort to litigation (as for most things in Australia) is very rare. We also have an obudsman process that allows complaints to be addressed.

The Wet signature is to ensure customers have read and agreed to the terms and conditions and prove that agreement, and obviously when it closes there will be many upset they havent signed such an agreement.

If you want the PFIT - sign the wet contract with Origin or someone else.

If you dont want the PFIT on their terms -sign with someone else.

If no-one else will offer terms that you like, survive without the PFIT and have a look at the SFIT and be happy with 1/3 of the income and far less subsidy from your neighbours.

These are all customer choice, and benefits of the competition we enjoy!

Just because you are generating it, doesnt mean someone has to buy it on your terms, I'm sure that doesnt happen in the USA either, even if you litigate.

Although your generator may be connected and generating, and even possibly recording on the meter, the output is not being purchased off you until a retailer has agreed to do so - its not automatic.

Of course if your old meter is running backwards you are effectively getting the 23c value by reversing consumption off the meter.

smiles

Sojin Muneshi

[conklinc]

Sojin,

I figured you might reply. I don't object to the way the system is set up, just the way Origin and United/Jemnena are being so secretive about the bells you have to ring, the whistles you have to blow and the loopholes you have to jump through in order to get the tariff that the law was design to give consumers willing to invest and create a carbon-free footprint. From talking to others and reading both this forum and also Whirlpool.net.au, I get the sense that Tru,Origin, AGL, etc., etc., are peas in a pod in terms of service and the way they treat solar up-grid requests.

In the U.S. local/regional/state/multistate electricity producers, distributors and retailers are also private entities. BUT, since they are monopolies, they are heavily regulated by state run/appointed "utility commissions" AND each and every increase has to be justified to, and approved by the state commissions. That keeps them from doing what Origin is doing, being duplicitive in the way they make the tariff available and then charging the h*ll out of willing solar owners when they DO use electricity off the grid. There is absolutely no justification for this at all. It is simply a big consumer ripoff to have to pay 29 cents kWh just because one up-grids from a solar array during the day. 47 cents a day for a service charge? Another rip off. Service charges in the U.S. run less than $4.00 a month, and yes, smart meters are coming and so is peak/offpeak pricing.

I haven't had to use the Ombudsman yet, but I'm assuming I will, and the trouble is, I won't know for sure that I am on the solar tariff until I get the first bill after installation of the smart meter, which for me will be around the first of March. So,I may lose a whole summer's worth of generation at the right tariff if they pull a fast one one me like they've done others . . . "we haven't logged the change yet . . . " or, "we're backlogged."

It wouldn't be a court litigation, since it is a civil matter, . . . it would be a VCAT issue. Dunno if they do class actions, probably not. Hey, what do I know? I'm just a retired law librarian . . . knowing just enough to be dangerous. OTH, if one or several could prove Origin is CONSPIRING . . . that just may be a criminal matter!

One nice thing, the weekend tariff for grid use is going to be 10c kWh. Looks like we'll be doing the washing on the weekends. Makes sense for them to do that because industry is generally closed and not using electricity, yet the capacity, the base load, has to be there, might as well use it.

[Sojin_Muneshi]

I would definately agree the information available on all this remains poor, and was atrocious in late 2009 early 2010.

Knowing the lack of technical resources involved in all this, I can assure you its not "collusion", but more correctly described as "incompetance".

In regards to the move from flat rate to ToU tariff, this should be made clear by the retailers, but also the sellers and installers, they are after all installing hundreds of these things!.

Many customers can benefit from ToU, but not everyone, it really depends on the type of loads and ability to move them to off-peak times.

Theoretically a ToU equates to a flat rate for a constant load, ie 80 hours of peak, 88 hours of off-peak, and the base loads of appliance standby and fridge/freezers should actually be cheaper to run on that basis.

Delaying the Dishwasher to after 11pm at night, timeclocking the washing machine and cloths dryer to come on at 6am in the morning to cycle over the last hour of the nightly off-peak period will also make a big difference, and of course deferring other discretionary loads to the weekend will also reduce the load.

On the other side of the ledger the Net FIT causes you to use your energy first and get paid for the excess that you export. Under a ToU for 5 of the 7 days your PV output is avoiding costs of energy consumption at the peak rate, and therefore skewing your average expenditure even further to the off-peak price.

Everyones situation and outcome is unique to them, but there are advantages to ToU, and the economic rationalist market theory of supply and demand explains why ToU will become the norm for us all.

regards

Sojin Muneshi

[conklinc]

Sojin,

When I went to Origins solar website the tariffs for Victoria wouldn't come up. I have no idea what the 11pm to 7 am offpeak rate is. We don't have a DW, since there's only the two of us in a small 2bdrm flat. One reason I sized my array they way I did was to maximize roof space use and take advantage of the PFIT during the summer since everything will be off, including refrigerator, as we'll be overseas. That is a nice tidy sum of
money that will be generated . . . assuming I can get the smart meter installed and on the right tariff before we leave. Our ave. consumption over the past year, omitting the two months we were gone was 8.5 kWh, very low compared to average use.

[Political mode on]
While everything seems to be more expensive here in Oz, I do agree with the policy of raising the price of electricity, for environmental reasons alone. (When we left the States in June '09. we were paying 6.8 cents a kWh, one of the lowest rates in the U.S., it has since gone up to 9 and soon 12--ours was sourced from hydro, black coal and natural gas, mostly coal) It is admirable that the Australian people actually WANT to do their part towards reducing carbon emissions, and brown coal definitely produces that. Every year it gets harder to go back because I see the selfish attitudes about this issue in the States. [Political mode off]

[Sojin_Muneshi]

Sojin,

When I went to Origins solar website the tariffs for Victoria wouldn't come up. I have no idea what the 11pm to 7 am offpeak rate is. We don't have a DW, since there's only the two of us in a small 2bdrm flat. One reason I sized my array they way I did was to maximize roof space use and take advantage of the PFIT during the summer since everything will be off, including refrigerator, as we'll be overseas. That is a nice tidy sum of
money that will be generated . . . assuming I can get the smart meter installed and on the right tariff before we leave. Our ave. consumption over the past year, omitting the two months we were gone was 8.5 kWh, very low compared to average use.

Many of ourRetailers are the poorest communicating businesses in existance!, they seem to go out of their way to make it confusing - perhaps they dont want us comparing prices!

The 11pm - 7am overnight off-peak should be the weekend 10c rate you mentioned earlier, and therefore when you are home the refrigerator is running at that rate for 8 hours a day or 88 hours of the week including the weekend.

If you are going away and want to ensure the meter is installed before you go, to ensure PFIT is in place, I would ring UE "New Connections" directly and tell them that you are going away and that you are concerned about access etc for the meter install, they may fast track it on that basis.

As long as you have the wet signature forms signed and in, and the meter is then exchanged, the PFIT will apply from the date of meter install. If they muck up the billing after that simply place a call to the Ombudsman to sort it out, the meter data will be available to prove it.

regards

Sojin Muneshi

[conklinc]

Sojin,

Wow, now that is info I can use! Do you have the phone number for EA "New Installations?" I'm sure others could use it too. No number is listed for that moniker in either the phone book or their website.

[Sojin_Muneshi]

conklinc,

I'm a bit confused as I thought from an earlier post above that you were in the United Energy / Jemena network area in Victoria but you refer to EA directly above? (NSW?)

here is the UED website and number to ring for their New Connections

http://www.ue.com.au/contact/default.asp

United Energy Distribution Service Desk
Call United Energy Distribution directly on:
1300 131 689 (8am-6pm) Mon-Fri.
Note: This service is operated by Jemena Limited

As Energy Australia is both a Distributor in NSW and Retailer their website is a bit more confusing:

http://www.energyaustralia.com.au/Common/Network-Supply-and-Services/Network-connections.aspx

Call one of our field operations offices:

Muswellbrook 02 6542 9017
Wallsend 02 4951 9930
Central Coast 02 4325 8537
Hornsby 02 9477 8201
Oatley 02 9585 5774


However in NSW the metering is done by third party installers or Approved Service Provider's and so I understand you need to get in contact with them directly?????

Hopefully the above will be of assistance.

When speaking to either, quote the "NMI" number off your bill, or your address and meter number as they wont make any sense of your retail account number.
(the NMI or National Metering Identifier is the best to quote).

Regards

Sojin Muneshi

[sawyer]

Hi there everyone,

just reading about the Origin rates rip-off and thought I'd add my two cents worth.
My sister and I have a small standard grid-connect system up on the roof which has been there for nearly a year without any meter to count the kWh input, and hence we have just been getting a reduced bill due to apparently less electricity usage. It's a long story but we aren't there much due to work commitments so our usage is pretty low at the moment and all this time the power is going off to the grid and we haven't seen a penny for our efforts to get a solar system installed.
Getting the meter installed has been a long-winded process of phone calls and waiting.
The smart meters are "rolling out" I'm told, but not here in Central Victoria so far.
There seems to be a disconnect between the installer, the rebate agency in Canberra who approve everything, the electricity retailer and finally the electricity supplier, which means that you have to chase all along the line to get the entire process to completion. Eventually we got all the paperwork right and were rebated (yay).
Then the system was finally acknowledged by Powercor and we got the retailer (TRU in this case) to move us to a solar schedule so that we can be put on a list of customers who will get a meter because they have a solar electricity generator on their roof. The meters are supposedly being rolled out regardless of whether you have one or not because (at least while Labor was in government) that was the policy. However it is a massive job and unsurprisingly taking forever.

Here is the bit I'm more than a little pissed off about. TRU were cagey about the rates for a solar system and basically we could only find out what they were once we'd signed up, and when we did they were a large increase from around 20 c/kWh to 25.35c/kWh. However this looks like a better deal than many are getting with Origin. All the same I cannot see any reason why they should charge more at all.
I know why they are doing it, it is a simple case of not wanting to pay much for the free electricity we are generating. That and being able to charge this amount because the retailers are all doing the same thing. At different rates of course, so I suppose the market model for the whole private energy retailers/suppliers set up will in time move in our favour, but I'm not holding my breath for that.
Unfortunately we have a compliant government (whatever their colour) and now receive our services from companies that are far more interested in turning a profit than anything else. And that's business.

Just for the record, our rates (for TRU Energy on their Go for More Solar schedule) are as follows:
Supply charge $19.97/m
First 333kWh 27.88 c/kWh
Balance of peak 28.71c/kWh
Off peak 11.19c/kWh All GST included
Buy back rate 66c/kWh No GST here, perhaps we should charge!

So anyway, that's my contribution to the discussion which I hope helps people out there to come to a slightly more informed position about the deal you get when you put your money down for a system that helps us all to reduce coal burning electricity generation amongst other useful things. I'm yet to decide whether we are getting a reasonable deal, but I have say I'm really glad we managed to get the rebate, because I cannot see a clear business case for doing it otherwise.