WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

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WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Tracker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:02 am

.
For years now, I have wondered about how WTC might influence the human body.
Intuitively, I say there could be no effect, and blame the complaints on neighbours, jealous of the financial benefits to the farm landlords.

But this day I heard a letter read, from an property owner, declaring how they wake in pain from the kidney region..
This is not the first time that I have heard such claims .. and I have previously discounted them as stupidity.. :roll:

How do we know that infrasound has no effect on organs .. you know the effect of standing near a duff-duff car. You FEEL it in your gut... :idea:

So, is there anyone out-there, living with this infrasound, and can comment...

Clearly, wind farms are a practical source of energy, but they do have issues. Massive issues..
Eg. Without high technology standby generators, a grid based on WTG power is sure to fail.
There. WILL. be a day when the sun don't shine, and the winds don't blow.. " becalmed on a sargassan sea."

It happened last year in SA, but fortunately, it is said there was an old coal plant being run at the time..
Had it not been available, blackout, is said to have been the next announcement..

We spend zillions on rebates for wind farms, and how much on the emergency power... the power to cover those odd times.. :evil:

PS. Living near Lake George does not count... that WTG plant never works anyway..
..
.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:17 am

Tracker, I have posted on this before- the levels of infrasound near WTGs and wind farms are significantly lower than many other areas, especially cities and near the beach. Do coastal residents suffer from Surf Wave Complex? Do people living within a couple of kilometres of a quiet road suffer from Passing Car Syndrome? Or maybe you know some people who are suffering from Aeroplane Contrail Syndrome, often after seeing "Chemtrail" signs posted on roadside trees?
Personally, I have lived with small wind turbines- within a few tens to a few hundreds of metres for over 20 years, and have visited many large wind farms across Australia. Yes they all make a bit of noise, none of which I found objectionable, and I quite enjoy hearing the small turbine that is located about 50m from my bedroom. Visitors often comment on it being a pleasant sound too. Yes my hair is falling out, and my skin getting wrinkly, heck I even get headaches and other random aches too. The dog barks a lot, the cockatoos fly in crazy circles and the chooks sometimes make a lot of noise. None of that has anything to do with the fact that I use the wind to occasionally generate some electricity! So far I have not suffered from Vibrating Lip Syndrome due to the WTGs, but I'm sure I can bring that on by blowing a raspberry at the Origin Energy truck as it drives past my gate ;)

All this nonsense about ailments caused by wind turbines is well demonstrated to be a communicated disease- you get it from reading or hearing about it. No doubt many of the ailments are real, but they occur everywhere, not just within the 100km range some claim for the evil effects of WTGs. In Germany, people have lived within 800m of large turbines for long periods, and have not suffered these fictitious ailments. The sickness is spread by the nonsense that is sprouted by these people, link to the article below:

"There are two main anti-wind farm groups in Australia busily fomenting anxiety and opposition. One is the Waubra Foundation, a group of mainly wealthy individuals, none of whom live in or near the town of Waubra, near Ballarat. Several of them, NIMBY style, have opposed turbines near their own properties elsewhere. They are led by an unregistered doctor, Sarah Laurie, and a wealthy mining investor, Peter Mitchell who also has connections to the Landscape Guardians. Despite their name, the Guardians have never attempted to guard our landscape from over-zealous residential developers, open cut coal or coal seam gas mining. They only target wind farm developments. All three – Waubra, the Guardians and Mitchell’s mining investment company share a South Melbourne post office box."


Distance has long been a creative component of the anti-wind lobby’s claims. Sarah Laurie has stated that “residents report the effects of the low frequency noise out to 10km”, but also offers 30 kilometres as the effective range of ‘wind turbine syndrome’. Motivated anti-wind enthusiast George Papadopoulos claims it can be perceived up to 100 kilometres away from wind turbines. - See more at: http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/infraso ... rdExU.dpuf

Some more reading matter for you, some of which I have posted previously:
http://www.epa.sa.gov.au/xstd_files/Noi ... asound.pdf
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/infraso ... here-10437
https://theconversation.com/wind-turbin ... sease-8318
http://etwasluft.blogspot.com.au/2012/1 ... drome.html
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/anti-wi ... -air-95349
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/bird-pr ... sage-63075
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/wind-tu ... rope-49517
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:36 pm

Tracker wrote:.
Clearly, wind farms are a practical source of energy, but they do have issues. Massive issues..
Eg. Without high technology standby generators, a grid based on WTG power is sure to fail.


Renewable energy intermittency may not be as bad a problem as you think:
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/is-inte ... ntly-72035

and the Australian Energy Market Operator certainly thinks 100% renewable is doable:
http://www.climatechange.gov.au/reducin ... ty-summary
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Tracker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:07 pm

..
Gordo - thanks buddy..

I find it hard to accept that rational people can claim these problems.. I CAN imagine that they can convince themselves that it's real..

Naturally, anything more than a few klicks away, just has to be "dreamtime" stuff.. Any claims like that, have to be from supporters, attempting to discredit the real complainers..

The one claim that I find strange, is the claim of it affecting the health of livestock.. Now THEY can be listening to the radio..

It's kinda similar to CSG..
The X-Perts say it can't do anything, but tell that to those living with it..
Perhaps NOT a good analogy... The latest suggestion on fracking is that it NOT the chemicals used, but the Salt and mineralisation problems AFTER , that causes the problems, KILLING fertile soils..
So who do we believe..
..
.

I'll try and go through the references...
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:30 pm

Tracker wrote:The one claim that I find strange, is the claim of it affecting the health of livestock..


Yes, it sure is a strange one, as sheep and cattle happily graze under WTGs, and have done so for years with no problems.

It's kinda similar to CSG..


but only in an extremely remote way! both are sources of energy is about as far as I'd go ;)

The X-Perts say it can't do anything,


The "experts" funded by the industry might say that, but independent researchers are rather less likely to say it. When large sums of money are at stake all sorts of dodgy dealings go on, not forgetting the inevitable cover-ups when something goes wrong, often only uncovered much later on. Chemical and saline water spills are well documented, as are high levels of methane in the Qld gasfields air, and the extensive bubbling up of methane in the Condamine river. Pro-gas experts claim the methane is natural, but long time residents disagree, and the companies have never done any research to establish baseline levels, and try to discredit researchers who are investigating.
It is just not worth destroying prime agricultural land, such as the Liverpool Plains, for the sake of short term profits by foreign companies. Then there is the issue of fugitive emmisions, meaning "clean" gas is in fact significantly worse than coal for electricity production, in terms of greenhouse gas equivalenece. Methane being 25- (EDIT) 72X worse than CO2, depending on what time span you consider- 100 or 20 years, greater in the shorter term.
...but don't get me started... :lol:

Gaslands2 will be out soon, and will be worth watching.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Cherokee Solar » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:18 pm

Tracker,

Dude...

I used to live in inner Melbourne and the bedrock was just below the clay which wasn't deep (between 1m and 2m). The now extinct volcano which forms Ruckers Hill in Northcote threw a lot of lava out that way. You could see the lava flows at Merri creek which cut through the middle of it. Geologically very interesting.

Anyway, the point is that you could clearly hear the vibrations from aircraft taking off at Melbourne airport about 30km away. A pilot lived next door who raised the issue with me. It was just a quirk of the geology.

Did it affect anyone? No.

People whine about large scale wind turbine projects. They say stuff like it kills birds etc. You know, I see more road kill on a daily basis (which I'm not contributing to) than all of the bird carnage from wind turbines on the planet combined.

Seriously, get something else to worry about. :D I'm pretty sure this issue has been discredited anyway.

Chris
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Tracker » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:06 am

.
Thanks again for the thoughts..
Cherokee Solar wrote:Anyway, the point is that you could clearly hear the vibrations from aircraft taking off at Melbourne airport about 30km away.

I do wonder if the lady that I heard on the radio, crying in pain, would agree that your thought was very relevant to her problem.. :idea:
I have slept in London, and felt every train, deep underground.. I wake at night, sometimes, because the earth "Moved-for-me".. The gusty wind came up and the house moved.

I wonder if the idea with these issues is that the "Badies" know there might be an issue and so "Ghost Write" various wild claims that can be seen to be bloody stupid, and create a haze that obscures the real issue. eg. Bird Strike -- I do HATE this being brought up all the time as proof that there is NO problem..

Now I recall an interesting early TV piece, with this fool describing how XRay's work and clearly said that these wondrous things will improve our lives and they are good for you.
Subsequently, there are many findings that XRay's cause Cancer, and more Xray's cause more cancer, and manufacturers are improving the technology in two directions.. to produce models with lower radiation, in subtle recognition that less is best, and then, building other models, that have dramatically more radiation, because it gives a better image... ie.. Industry will build and develop ANYTHING that makes money.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/infrasound-report-wind-turbine-syndrome-is-everywhere-and-nowhere-10437#sthash.wHVrdExU.dpuf

Probably the best read of the material around, but what does it really say...
To me, it says that their finding is that there is MORE noise found in the city, and thus I should be sicker that those complaining.. Fair cop, assuming the tests are fair..

From an overall perspective, measured G-weighted infrasound levels at rural locations both near to and away from wind farms were no higher than infrasound levels measured at the urban locations. Furthermore, both outdoor and indoor infrasound levels were typically below the perception threshold by a significant margin.

Pretty convincing - They have done their homework and tests..
Due to the typical levels of sound at these frequencies in the environment, infrasound is commonly thought of as occurring below the limit of the audible range of frequencies.
However, sound at frequencies below 20Hz can be perceived by humans as long as the level is high enough (Leventhall, 2006), with hearing thresholds determined down to frequencies as low as 2Hz (Watanabe &Møller, 1990).

So, the basis of testing for NUISANCE sound, is a suggestion that 20Hz is a typical magic number for HEARING.. and that Feeling Sound can be down to 2Hz..
I wonder what the frequency is for biological reaction is.. ( Just Curious.. :( )

As an older engineer who has forgotten more than he cares to remember, I see a test, measuring the "Perceived" effect on HEARING, using a "G" weighted factor..
But- The people are not complaining of hearing the cause.. They are FEELING it.. They CLAIM that they wake at night to a FEELING and the pain, and find the wind has come up and the turbines are spinning..
THEY FELT it before they heard it.. In fact the White-Noise from the wind, masked the sound of the wind farm.. but they claim that they felt it..

G-Weight.jpg
G-Weight.jpg (19.53 KiB) Viewed 2447 times


So, the "Feeling" end of the infra-sound spectrum is attenuated 40 to 80dB.. That is "IF" the human body can FEEL sound..

Now, to ME, that is one good way of proving complainants to be fools and wackos..
Just change the measurements, on the basis of a claim as to what can be detected by the body..

Now, don't get me wrong.. I am presenting what I have heard from VERY reasonable and honest sounding people, who MAY be scheming bastards, jealous of their neighbours..

Sheep and cattle are D.U.M.B. and will happily graze under the spinning blades, but I am sure I saw a "WTG friendly" farmer saying that Still-Births amongst his stock was very high... Hmmmmm ! :cry:

Just as I know that XRay's can ultimately kill you, and Radiation as a cure for cancer, causes cancer years later, MY mind is still open on Infra-Sound ..!

G-Weighted measurement.. ;) .. I would love to see the pure measurements..
..
.
..
.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Cherokee Solar » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:31 am

Tracker,

Fair enough. Statistics can be used to say pretty much whatever you want them to.

However, I reckon the core problem that people have with wind turbines is aesthetics. In urban areas no one give a rats about such matters (have you seen how ugly our middle to outer suburbs are?). In rural areas people get upset about aesthetics. Vistas / views are valued highly and are one of the benefits of living in a rural area over an urban area.

So your neighbour makes some serious mad cash installing a commercial wind farm on their property. You are then stuck looking at the wind turbines and have probably also lost value on your own property (which you may have debt on or be using it as a retirement fund). This gives you a lot of stress. That stress leads to psychosomatic illness and you blame the wind turbine. Of course it would never be from stress due to the loss of your visual amenities and/or property value of your farm (such things are unspoken)....

As to cattle being dumb. People say chickens are dumb too. You need to watch a group of chickens descending on a rat nest to appreciate just how sharp they can be. Chickens have established social orders, they communicate and they clearly recall things.

People generally don't really spend enough time around nature these days to be able to make a qualified opinion on the subject. By believing that those animals are dumb it allows people to live with all sorts of unpleasantness such as commercial feed lots, sow stalls, battery farms etc. I'm not having a go, just trying to give you a different perspective on the matter.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:15 am

Here you go Tracker: http://windfarmperformance.info/
Not live, but daily graphs up to yesterday, and you can display one to all wind farms, and by state if you want, connected to the National Grid in SE Australia. It only seems to include large wind farms though, as I don't see Hampton or Crookwell listed.
We're under an area of high pressure ATM, so not ideal for wind power, yet Capital Windfarm nicely complemented PV solar power yesterday, by producing reasonable output during the evening hours.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Tracker » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:56 am

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:..... I don't see Hampton or Crookwell listed..... .

..
HMMM... I wonder if there is an Embarassment Factor, in their omission.. ;)

Thanks..
..
.
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