WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby zzsstt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:51 pm

Cherokee Solar wrote:This whole thread is one long take on: my values are different from your values.


Actually a more apt description would be "my values mean I can do whatever I like, and you don't matter". I have no argument with someone having a particular set of values, except that in this case I am having to pay the consequences.

Your closing comment sums it up entirely:

Cherokee Solar wrote:I've made some hard choices in my own life to address those questions, but few people, if any want to accept any limitations on their choices.


Read it again. YOU have made some hard choices. YOUR choices, YOUR decisions. I don't wish to sound rude, but believe me it's an entire different ball game when it's SOMEONE ELSE'S DECISION.

Lets give you an example. Rather than you making the decision, I'll make it for you. Now you are no longer making a "hard decision" to give up something you are actually willing to give up (lets face it, you gave it up!). You are, with no right to recourse, having something taken away from you. So what shall I have you give up? Remember, it's my decision!....

If I actually had the power to do this, you'd currently be hoping that I stuck with MY values of "not impacting other people", rather than "what I want is more important than what anyone else wants".
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Cherokee Solar » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:10 pm

Hi zzsstt,

Thanks for your reply as I am enjoying this dialogue.

zzsstt wrote:Read it again. YOU have made some hard choices. YOUR choices, YOUR decisions. I don't wish to sound rude, but believe me it's an entire different ball game when it's SOMEONE ELSE'S DECISION.


There is a logical fallacy in your reply. You are assuming that the only time your actions can be impacted is by other people.

However, this is not the case. I believe you stated previously that you are on a farm. As a farmer, you should know that nature places far more restrictions on your actions and productivity than other people.

There are also limits to the economic availability of minerals, energy, soil, water etc. These are real limits and can’t be gotten around.

zzsstt wrote:I don't wish to sound rude, but believe me it's an entire different ball game when it's SOMEONE ELSE'S DECISION.


There is a good reason why the old chestnut “do unto others” is described as the golden rule.

I’d like to manage the forest here differently on a more traditional basis but I am constrained by the law and threat of serious fines if I do what I want. The result is that fuel builds up and inevitably there will be a wildfire through here at some stage in the not too distant future. The funny thing is that people always seem to be surprised when it happens and demand strange things like Royal Commissions as if it makes a difference… I understand your point of view perhaps better than most.

You dodged the central question though which drives these types of discussions, because it is hard to respond to without looking like a hypocrite. The central question is, “what sort of culture and environment do you want to live in and what do you want it to look like?”

Without addressing that question you sound to me much like the environmentalists asking for someone to do something, somewhere else as long as it doesn’t inconvenience them.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:08 am

Cherokee Solar wrote:There is a logical fallacy in your reply. You are assuming that the only time your actions can be impacted is by other people.


Not really. We make decisions unilaterally, and also we make decisions in response to outside stimuli. If we choose to take action to "save the planet",that is perfectly fine. I have no qualms about people putting PV on their roof etc. However in this situation it is not that simple. "People" have chosen to save the planet by disrupting my life, not theirs. I try very hard not to do that, as I do not consider it fair that my actions impact negatively on other people.

Cherokee Solar wrote:There are also limits to the economic availability of minerals, energy, soil, water etc. These are real limits and can’t be gotten around.


Once again, I agree (but again, it's not really the point being discussed). It is simply the conservation METHOD that is in question. I reduced my use of electricity by installing PV on all my businesses and my house. I reduce my use of other resources by growing much of my own food, and composting much of our household waste. On my farm I try to use as little fertiliser as possible, and manage that usage (and water, fuel etc.) in the optimum way. Despite our best efforts we still suffer from plastic packaging overload and freight from China, but that is hard to avoid these days. However you will notice that all of the above has little direct impact on anyone else.

Cherokee Solar wrote:You dodged the central question though which drives these types of discussions, because it is hard to respond to without looking like a hypocrite. The central question is, “what sort of culture and environment do you want to live in and what do you want it to look like?”


I don't think I dodged it at all, but it is a massive subject with a great many interlinked aspects. For example I believe we should not negatively impact, or restrict the freedom, of other people. I also believe that we should help people who are unable to help themselves. However, and it saddens me to say this, human nature makes this very difficult because it requires EVERYONE to share the same views and reciprocate actions. For example, I provide a (very) cheap house for a young couple and their kids. In return they keep it clean, keep an eye on my farm etc., and it works very nicely. Everyone is happy. But it doesn't always work that way, some people will trash the house, leave gates open etc. The same applies to unemployment benefits, the PBA, disability schemes. These schemes are supposed to help those who need help, and as such I fully support them. But unfortunately there is a large and growing number of people who view them as a lifestyle choice, easier than working. So whilst I believe in helping others, I believe in helping those who help themselves. It is also complicated when one considers that not everyone shares the same values. Is it my place to criticise a foreign country because their beliefs and actions do not match mine? Does that inherently mean that mine are right? Good and bad are often simply a result of fashion, freedom fighter and terrorist are separated only by opinion of the viewer. Beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder.

The environment is equally difficult. It is not, and never has been, a static thing. It is always changing. So whilst I don not think that pumping (real) pollutants in to the air is a good thing, it is equally nonsensical to pick a number (whether that be ppm, number of species, acres or anything else), and pretend that "this number" is normal. The world is in a constant state of flux, the climate changes, species come and go and environments change. Australia was once a rain forest, but no longer. You say that you want to manage your forests in a "more traditional manner", by which I assume you mean an aboriginal style cool season patchwork burning program. Given how well that works in the NT, I can see why that appeals. But do you realise that this very approach is, according to some research, is what changed Australia and killed the mega fauna?

Living in a mining area, and having travelled extensively through the country, I know that mining is not pretty. But that applies to gold, zinc and even opal mining, not just coal. And, by the way, most cities are not exactly attractive either! And I've seen a lot of 100% natural landscapes that are, to me, very unappealing. And some incredibly pretty farms, and even factories!

The main point here is not, in fact "how do I want the environment to look", as that is simply a matter of opinion. Nor can the point be "how can we preserve the environment", because constant change is part of nature and to try and halt change is to defy nature. The only point is "what do we think is acceptable in our efforts to follow our own values".

Taken to extremes, I have minimal reliance on "cities". Most of what I want, and all of what I need (with the possible exception of coffee!) I can source in my own valley. And I can do so without ever changing the environment from the way it is now. So if I believe strongly enough, does that give me the right to "terminate" the cities on the grounds that they are causing the problem? No, of course not. Does it give me the right to turn off all the power stations on the grounds that they are causing the problems, and doing so won't impact me? No, obviously it doesn't! In fact, in my view, it gives me no rights whatsoever to bugger up anybody elses life because of what I believe. If I want to convert the world to what I want it to be, I can do that only through persuasion and encouragement. I can replace my mother in laws 50W MR16's with LED's, at my expense and with her permission. I can discuss solar panels and water tanks with people who have neither. But can I pull out all their fuses? No. I can encourage, I can sponsor and I can work. I spent half of yesterday pulling out a windmill and a faulty solar bore pump for a guy up the road, then tearing it down and ordering spare parts. I'll repair it and refit it (for free) and he will once again have a working solar pump. In the process I will be encouraging him to put PV on his roof, and we'll discuss all kinds of environmental farming and living options, that I will make no profit from. I can encourage and assist, but it is not my place to demand or impose.

The environment is ever changing, and it will suffer all of what we throw at it and still be here. Not always the same, but then it has never remained constant. How we interact with each other is far more important. If we start believing that our values give us the right to do whatever we want, disadvantaging others to suit ourselves, then the only thing we can be said to truly care about is ourselves.

So I believe that the discussion is not really about wind farms. As you suggest, the discussion is really about society, culture and values. Various religions, through the centuries, have seen it as acceptable (and in some cases still do) to do pretty much whatever they please, based on their beliefs. Our beliefs are that we need to be more energy efficient, and more mindful of our limited resources. Does that give us the right to burn witches? Or even to compost them?

Cherokee Solar wrote:what sort of ...environment do you want to live in and what do you want it to look like?


Would it be too ironic to say that I wanted to live in the environment where I bought this farm, and I want it to look the way it did when I bought it....... rather than looking like a wind farm?
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Tracker » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:12 am

.
back to the question .."fact or fiction"... :?:
I would imagine there would be a good case for a study of those living within different distances from farms..

ie. consider the attitude to renewable power and the illness patterns for the family members.

we would thus speculate that rejection, even. via NIMBY, might result in unspecified illness, whereas complete acceptance ( wow.. I like seeing them turning.) would deliver normal health patterns ...

eg. I love to watch plane movements from KSA Sydney .. I see commerce and enjoyment in every flight.
others see an airport with no place in the city.. :cry:
..
.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:26 pm

It's always hard to do such assessments because there are so many variables. Even if we dismiss for a moment any bias in the motivation of the study itself, and any "stress" brought on by financial or other non-physical factors, the outcome for any given person might be dependent on (with just a few seconds of thought):

Type of house
Distance of house
Design of turbine
Number of turbines
Placement of dwelling with regard to prevailing wind (upwind or downwind)
Placement of dwelling with regard to height (above, below, on the same plane)
Placement of dwelling with to noise transmission (line of sight, blocked by trees, reflection from sheds, hills etc.)

It might even make a difference if the bedrooms are facing towards, or away from the turbine(s). Very small factors can have a large impact - a neighbour of mine cleared some woody weed growth (mostly blackberry) from a paddock and that same evening his partner asked why she could suddenly hear the vehicles on the road. A 10m wide strip of blackberry had made a noticeable reduction to road noise levels INSIDE THE HOUSE >200m away.

On top of that we have the susceptibility of the individual. Like bee stings or the common cold, one person might be more affected than another. Some older people with reduced hearing ability might be less susceptible, or on the other hand they might be more susceptible if they are home all day rather than away at work? Certainly it seems likely that a pro-wind farm "green" would, perhaps even subconsciously, ignore low level symptoms in order to present the view that they wish to communicate (it's not unusual for people to put up with all kinds of things because of their beliefs!), whilst those with inherently negative feelings might blame an ingrown toenail on the wind farm!

Long ago I was involved with pharmaceutical companies and drug development. They spend a great deal of time designing drug trials, much of which is actually spent designing "enrollment criteria" for the patients/subjects. Ostensibly this is to ensure an accurate result, and one that is not impacted by other factors, but it could also be argued that it is designed to get the best result for the drug in question. They, of course, have the ability to use placebo's to attempt to get an unbiased response from the patient. They also collect every single "adverse event" (bad thing) that happens to a trial subject, and then analyze all that data for trends. As was pointed out to me at the time, "being hit by a baseball" might not appear to be related to the drug, but if enough people have balance/spatial awareness/reflex time/peripheral vision adverse events then we must question whether the drug is in fact involved!

With wind farms you could only compare the health of individuals near a wind farm with that of people in other areas. But that in itself is questionable, because so many other factors are involved - farmers and rural people tend not to make use of medical facilities (even if such facilities are easily available to them, which is rare), tending to struggle on regardless! And we can only study the relatively small (by the very nature of wind farm placement) number of people who are actually living in the area involved, rather than those with wind farms on their properties but who live far away. And, of course, it is hard to design a "placebo" wind farm. I'm not sure that painting a turbine on someone's windows would fool them!!

So it would take a very well designed study that was completely free of bias and assumption, with a massive sample size and all-encompassing database to identify what, if any, factors affected peoples responses to wind farms.

The above is also the reason why I have little faith in most studies these days. It is simply too easy to skew a study, either during subject selection, data selection, methodology or statistical analysis to achieve whatever result you like. I know, I've been involved with it!
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:08 pm

Tracker- a report on another study...

An acoustic engineering group has rejected claims that the frequencies created by wind turbines can have adverse health issues, saying the infrasound generated is often less than a person’s heart-beat.
...
And interestingly,
>>One of the most vocal anti-wind activists is Steven Cooper, an acoustician who is also a member of the AAAC.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/acousti ... beat-92994
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby davidg » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:26 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:>>One of the most vocal anti-wind activists is Steven Cooper, an acoustician who is also a member of the AAAC. http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/acousti ... beat-92994

Um, no, he's a member of the Australian Acoustical Society which is different, sorry :(
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:37 pm

I was just quoting the article... did you point out the error in the comments? I cant get the page to load tonight.
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby davidg » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:44 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:I was just quoting the article

Um, it was an error you posted (Sorry) at the bottom of the article it pointed out who he was associated and specifically pointed out it was not the AAAC.

"Quote" Among the AAAC’s membership is Les Huson, who works with several anti wind groups. Vocal anti-wind activist Steven Cooper is a member of the Australian Acoustical Society (and not the AAAC as we reported before). "Unquote"
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Re: WTC ---- Wind Turbine Complex.. fact or fiction

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:28 am

ahh, clearly someone reported it and they fixed it, after I'd copied and pasted.

I still can't get the page to load.
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