solar powered steam generator

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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby Joey » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:34 pm

munter wrote:Joey - where abouts are you? I was contemplating experimenting as there are plenty of busted rear proj TVs on ebay for cheap but I didn't want to have to deal with disposing of the remainder of the box. I'm in Sydney.


I'm in Perth , Pity I would have given you one for free if you were local , I hear what you are saying about disposing of the old TV they are a real pain!
Fortunately I do a lot of conversions to LCD using the existing cabinet so basically all that gets wasted are the screens.
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby SR76 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:59 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:
Due to various inefficiencies, you would probably need to have 4 or 5kW of heat input to run a 1kW turbine. Still, if the input energy isnt costing anything, that doesn't matter.



Keep going... don't forget the Carnot limit...
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:36 am

I dont think 20% efficiency is beyond the realms of possibility with a well designed system. Coal fired power stations manage 30-35%.
Anyway, the energy from the sun is free and non-polluting, so it doesnt matter that much.

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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby SR76 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:46 am

Here's a commercially made Organic Rankine Cycle generator.

http://www.freepower.co.uk/FP120%20SpecDimensions.pdf

Gross power output 130 kW
Required heat input 742 kW

Inlet temp 280 deg C (553 degK)
Outlet temp 136 degC (409 degK)

Carnot limit = 1-(409/553) = 26%
Actual efficiency = 130/742 = 17.5%

But don't forget the rather inconvenient 632 kW of cooling also required...

These guys used to have a 6kW machine as well (more suited to domestic generation, operated at 180 degC input) but it took 70 kW of heat input for 6 kW electrical output - 8.6% efficiency. It's no longer on their website but was last year.

Assuming that these guys are reasonably good at their jobs and better than me trying to cobble together bits and bobs out of old car parts, perhaps 10% is the best I could aspire to for an ORC system that operates at realistic domestic temperatures.

Now, even the best evac tubes (http://www.solarenergy.ch/factsheets/scf927en.pdf) are about 60% efficient (gross area solar irradiation to heat output) at 0 degrees temperature difference and this decreases as you get hotter. If the water temp is 200 degC inside and the air temp is 30 to 40 degC the efficiency will be below 50%.

10% * 50% is already 5% without thinking about pipe heat losses, inverter efficiency, heat storage, where all that cooling is going to come from (or excess heat is going to go to).

I absolutely agree that if the energy source is free and the heat is there anyway, it doesn't matter. I would strongly encourage tinkering an be delighted to hear stories.

However tubes and ORC engines are not free, so I wouldn't advise anyone to take out a second mortgage and cover their roofs with tubes in the hope of becoming a domestic power station and getting rich off feed-in tariffs.
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby munter » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:07 am

hmm - depressing numbers. The complexity and high temperature dangers of a steam based system make photovoltaics look attractively simple!
http://renovations08.blogspot.com/ - my energy efficiency blog
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby Icarus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:48 pm

yeah seems kinda difficult , and xpensive , seeing you guys are knowledgeable what do you think of overunity http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-MQvzOCNSI , this guy is saying he is making more power than it consumes, is this possible ? I dont really know much about generators and inverters , so maybe you can see the flaw . Otherwise why are they not using it now on all power generation equipment ? .

cheers Daved
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby SR76 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:51 pm

Icarus wrote:yeah seems kinda difficult , and xpensive , seeing you guys are knowledgeable what do you think of overunity http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-MQvzOCNSI , this guy is saying he is making more power than it consumes, is this possible ? I dont really know much about generators and inverters , so maybe you can see the flaw . Otherwise why are they not using it now on all power generation equipment ? .

cheers Daved


Utter rubbish. The laws of physics do not permit a device to output more energy than is invested, end of story.

The internet is filled with people who think they've discovered something like this. Many discover their mistake and give up early. Some go out to find investors. Some are absolutely convinced that their ideas are pure gold but there's one tiny flaw that - as soon as they've ironed that one out - they'll make squillions. Many believe that there's a massive oil company conspiracy that stops them from succeeding. Many aren't quite sure of what they are actually measuring (e.g. what "root mean square" of a sine wave is and why measuring AC power isn't as simple as it looks). Some fudge the numbers.
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby SR76 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:55 pm

Famous examples that didn't quite make it (Google these if you like, for added bonus include the word "scam"):

Lutec
Steorn

and hundreds of others...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... n_machines
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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:35 pm

We've had a scammer or 2 on here, you could look for threads with posts by Gyro.
Also this http://forums.energymatters.com.au/post1915.html?hilit=thermodynamics#p1915 thread sort of covers some of these free energy scams.


Icarus wrote: I dont really know much about generators and inverters , so maybe you can see the flaw . Otherwise why are they not using it now on all power generation equipment ? .


Breaking the laws of Thermodynamics is a pretty major flaw ;)


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Re: solar powered steam generator

Postby Icarus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:23 pm

thanx guys "Breaking the laws of Thermodynamics " iam no bright spark but I thought thats what they where doing ,but you can see by the posts alot of people fall for it , just annoys me when people do bad science and I cant tell see how its wrong .
thanks
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