solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

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solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby australsolarier » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:52 pm

http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/Home/Indust ... ty/Reviews

The Premier of new South Wales has asked IPART to undertake an investigation into solar feed-in tariffs. The investigation will establish a fair and reasonable value for electricity generated by small scale solar photovoltaic systems. The fair and reasonable value determined by IPART must not result in any increase in electricity prices in NSW, and must not be funded from the NSW Government budget.

the last sentence seems to me to be a term of contradiction. ( i want to buy ice cream but not spend money)
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Tracker » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:16 am

australsolarier wrote:........ The fair and reasonable value determined by IPART must not result in any increase in electricity prices in NSW, and must not be funded from the NSW Government budget.


Agreed, not a good look..

The system thinks that 7 or 8 c is too much..
the NSW govt. Owns the pole and distribution and gets a fixed charge for every Coulomb of energy delivered..

SO, one wonders just where ANY extra money will come from...
.. reduce distribution cost.. = ... reduce Govt income
.. reduce generator cost. .... = ... reduce Govt income
.. reduce retailers margin.... = ... likely break guarantees by Govt. Of income.. = increased service charges

Can Anyone think of just who can reduce their profit to give a fair FIT... without increasing the cost to the customer...

Sounds like a plot for "Mission Impossible 3"
..
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby davidg » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:20 pm

David_b wrote:We need a fair tariff rate! We get 6 - 13 cents for every kilowatt hour we feed back into the grid from our systems but people who get power from the grid are charged more than 21c/kwh? Something's definitely off here.


Devils advocate being played here. Don't crucify me :?

Not really there is the retailer they must make a profit, then there is the cost of actually producing base load and spinning reserve power "coal fired generator" after all the sun is not up all the time and your power has to come from somewhere when it goes to bed. Then there is the charge for transporting on the poles and wires separate entities, then there is GST, there is the ....... there must be something else but I forget exactly what. .................... :lol:

Anyway you get the idea, oh that's right there is the hidden cost of funding the FIT schemes that are currently active in NSW, they come out of the charges either partly of fully as well from memory. :cry:
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:45 pm

You forgot the significant extra charge they levy on everybody, to cover the cost of incentives to lure customers from other retailers!
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby davidg » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:11 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:You forgot the significant extra charge they levy on everybody, to cover the cost of incentives to lure customers from other retailers!

Knew I forgot something :roll:
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:40 am

This subject seems to come up quite regularly, and it seems that nearly everyone who has (or sells) solar panels believes that a "fair" tariff is some massively high figure, way beyond the usual wholesale price of electricity.

Now assuming that everyone understands (as has been explained many times) that the electricity retailer has to make a profit, and pay the "delivery fee" (network costs) etc., and that their selling price is fixed by the government, I am truly at a loss to understand why it is that people believe that a "fair" price is anything more than the normal wholesale price of power. Could someone explain it to me please? Or could someone give me an example of another business where a small producer is given a higher wholesale price than anyone else, much less a 1:1 sell:buy price? Because for the life of me I can't!

Imagine for a moment what Colesworth would say if you approached them with the 6 spare eggs that your chickens had laid this week, and demanded that they buy them from you at their normal selling price, and collect them and transport them back to their store. Or the 1kg of tomatoes that you grew and didn't want.

It makes no sense to expect that the power company will pay you any more than they could pay anybody else, unless they can recoup that money somewhere else. And with a selling price fixed by IPART, they can't! The only way any extra cost can be recouped is by a levy on other people, and now we're back to a tax on one person so that somebody else can profit.

This is business, and this is the real world. We have seen the mess that is created by stupid policies that pay ridiculous amounts to those rich enough to afford solar. Those policies were driven by the Greens, the PV resellers and petitions signed by people whose belief systems or greed were stronger than their common sense or knowledge of business. The policies failed, backfired and gave the media a field day. The people pushing for those policies had their chance to be sensible, but instead they were greedy and stupid. They created a minefield in which "no government funding" and "no increased cost to consumers" are first and foremost in the minds of the legislators.

In the real world, your exported power is worth the same as any other power. It is blinkered to expect anything else. If the wholesale price of power is averaged at 8c, then that is what your power is worth.
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Smurf1976 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:09 pm

Solar PV has a higher value than bulk wholesale electricity only in a situation where it avoids some cost other than that of generating electricity itself.

If there's a clear peak in consumption at noon, and that peak is strongly correlated with sunshine, then PV can avoid the need to upgrade both generating and transmission/distribution capacity. As such, the value of PV under that situation is substantially higher than the average wholesale price of electricity.

Reality however is that, in Australia, such a strong correlation really only exists in SA, WA and Vic. Elsewhere, daytime load is relatively flat (Qld), the Winter peak is roughly equal to the Summer peak (NSW) or the peak is quite simply in Winter with far less usage in Summer (Tas).

Solar PV in Adelaide has a much higher true value than it does in Hobart or even Sydney for this reason. On a very hot day, literally 60% of all electricity in SA is used for air-conditioning at the peak and PV can reduce network capacity costs accordingly. That said, the panels need to be facing West to really achieve this, since it's only their output at 3pm which is of any real value in reducing network costs.

As for wholesale electricity prices, even 8c is substantially higher than the actual costs. Depending on what state you are in, the actual price averages 4.8 (Tas) to 7 (SA) cents per kWh with the carbon tax. Prior to the tax, the range was 2.7c (Vic) to just under 3.3 (Tas). Note that WA and NT are not included in this data - I'm not sure what prices would be there.
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:40 pm

Smurf1976 wrote:As for wholesale electricity prices, even 8c is substantially higher than the actual costs.


Most of the time, yes. However, when the wholesale price hits $12500/MWh ($12.50/kWh), 8c is a very good deal! Conversely, 8c/kWh is expensive when the wholesale price goes negative! I've seen both extremes in the last month or so.
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:21 pm

Smurf1976 wrote:If there's a clear peak in consumption at noon, and that peak is strongly correlated with sunshine, then PV can avoid the need to upgrade both generating and transmission/distribution capacity. As such, the value of PV under that situation is substantially higher than the average wholesale price of electricity.


That may be true, but it would also require a large amount of expense because (as far as I know) solar export is currently only metered as a total. So whilst a small amount of the total export may be at this "peak demand" time, it doesn't really justify the exporter being paid a higher rate for their total production - only the bit at the crucial time. So now we need a minute by minute export meter, sliding FIT rates etc. It could perhaps be argued that reducing the need for "peak demand" generation capacity might justify an increased PV FIT for all daylight hours, rather than simply at peak demand time, but that argument would have to be based on the PV export being sold to a generator or the network rather than a retailer, as that is where the upgrade costs will be avoided. Again, we are back to the retailer having to pay extra for no gain!

And that's before we consider that at the "peak demand" time, the exporter is quite likely using all their own power (plus some more from the grid) to run their own air conditioning. Whilst it could be argued that this reduces the demand on the grid, and thus (as you stated) reduces the need to upgrade the network, the same could be said of somebody turning their aircon OFF. Is my power company going to pay me to switch off my airconditioning?

It could also be argued (playing devils advocate) that paying for exported solar power has a negative effect, in that if it reduces the absolute need to upgrade the network it also reduces the financial incentive to do so by reducing the available profit from further investment. From experience (not in the power sector), delaying investment is very attractive to large companies. Unfortunately I have seen some very poor outcomes from this strategy in the longer term, when attempts to wring every last ounce from an existing system have resulted in a complete inability to react to a change in conditions.
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:46 pm

zzsstt wrote: Is my power company going to pay me to switch off my airconditioning?


Actually yes, they might! Once smart meters are installed and you might have the option of signing up to shed load such as ACs in peak periods, there will be credits of some sort to be had. After all, reducing load and paying you say $1 (made up number) per kWh is a lot less expensive for a retailer than purchasing it at $10/kWh and selling it to you for 52c/kWh.

I believe there have been trials of this sort of arrangement already, although I cant remember where they were/are offhand.
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