solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby davidg » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:39 pm

Isn't NSW the original home in Aus of "gold plating" network assets to handle extreme peak demands :lol:.
Then don't the prices get ramped up prices to cover the cost of doing it, thereby improving general revenue on a daily basis to cover the approx possible 40 hours a year of real maximum peak demand. :shock:
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:44 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:
zzsstt wrote: Is my power company going to pay me to switch off my airconditioning?


Actually yes, they might!


I would have thought that the cost and complexity of fitting a new meter and wiring it such that specific loads can be switched on and off (without damage) would be astronomical. To do that to enough houses to make any significant difference would surely cost as much as doing the job right and "fixing" the supply? Come to think of it, wouldn't paying for PV to be installed on those houses be cheaper?.... oh..... but then they lose revenue!

And can you see the people queuing up to have their air conditioning switched off when they most need it?

It stuns me how willing we are to create ever more complex systems just to maintain central control and central profit! It just means that when disaster inevitably strikes, the scale of the problem is vastly bigger than it needs to be.
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:49 pm

davidg wrote:Isn't NSW the original home in Aus of "gold plating" network assets to handle extreme peak demands :lol:.
Then don't the prices get ramped up prices to cover the cost of doing it, thereby improving general revenue on a daily basis to cover the approx possible 40 hours a year of real maximum peak demand. :shock:


I am told that the gold plating was a political act rather than anything to do with actual needs. We have beautiful new concrete posts that replaced the old timber ones, but the line voltage is still way too high, way too variable and we still have power outages whenever it even looks like a storm. But the posts are nice!
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby davidg » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:53 pm

zzsstt wrote:It stuns me how willing we are to create ever more complex systems just to maintain central control and central profit!

It's called smart grids, we don't have them in Aus yet but check out germany, there is pretty well there now.

zzsstt wrote:It just means that when disaster inevitably strikes, the scale of the problem is vastly bigger than it needs to be.

Australia is not known for always doing the smartest forward planning particularly when pollies get involved. Somehow they regularly mange to turn a silk purse into a sows ear and then it's always someone or something elses fault. :shock:
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby zzsstt » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:21 pm

davidg wrote:It's called smart grids, we don't have them in Aus yet but check out germany, there is pretty well there now.


In Germany (I used to work there) they also have what are known as "smart people". In Australia, sadly, we don't.

Actually there are some apparent similarities between Germany and Australia, but the causes are completely different. For example, in both countries if you are in the wrong lane at a junction nobody will let you change lanes. In Germany this is because they simply don't understand how you could possibly ever be in the wrong lane, as nobody is ever less than 100% efficient. In Australia, it's because they're "not gonna let you in front of 'em". ;)
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby davidg » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:34 pm

zzsstt wrote:In Germany (I used to work there) they also have what are known as "smart people". In Australia, sadly, we don't.

We have some, they just got fired, see stands to reason get a pollie and you have silk purse turned into a sows ear :lol:

zzsstt wrote:In Australia, it's because they're "not gonna let you in front of 'em". ;)

Ha ha ........................... my take is :o it's because the prick didn't turn on his/her blinker until they actually started wanting to change lanes, that really pisses me off :shock: they can get stuffed now :lol:
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Smurf1976 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:32 pm

Smart grid - it's being done on King Island as a demonstration project (at this stage) although in the longer term financial incentives are likely to encourage uptake. And yes, they will be switching individual household loads as part of this.

For the rest of Tasmania, the Hydro currently has immediate (literally immediate) control over about 40% of the average system load (or about 26% of the peak load) for economic purposes and a greater amount for technical purposes.

Technical - they automatically trip certain major loads when the need arises. In itself this is nothing unusual, all grids work this way when supply falls short of demand. However, the difference is that in this case operational risks are taken intentionally that otherwise wouldn't be, using the automatic trip as the fail safe. The benefit of those risks is to maximise the use of lowest cost generation sources, at times being very heavily reliant on a small number of physical sources of supply (see below). Consequently there are a relatively large number of trips of these loads.

This enables the Tasmanian grid to operate satisfactorily under conditions which maximise the use of available natural resources in a system where availability fluctuates widely (due to the reliance on hydro, much of it from schemes with limited storage, and significant use of wind). In Tas, generation shifts around far more than load does - and often there's a benefit in pushing one or more particular sources of generation as hard as possible, making "spinning reserve" problematic to achieve (unless there's an awful lot of machines left spinning, which adds to wear and wastes water).

Economic - If the Victorian spot price is sufficiently high and Hydro Tas doesn't have (for whatever reason) sufficient generating capacity available to run the Vic - Tas link to full capacity northbound then they simply disconnect certain loads within Tas in order to maximise profit. This is a purely economic measure, the lights would still stay on without it, with the financial benefits split between the Hydro and those customers with loads disconnected. The practical implication is that the customer ends up paying less than the average wholesale price, and the Hydro re-sells contracted output at a much higher price in the spot market. Everyone wins, the only cost being a bit of lost silicomanganese, ferromanganese, zinc and aluminium production - but the cheap electricity more than offsets the slightly lower production volumes from a financial perspective.

So in short, quite a bit of this sort of stuff is actually being done in Tasmania at present.
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby zzsstt » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:47 am

So what happens to people and businesses under such a regime? When talking about large scale switch-offs, in industry, does that not mean you suddenly have workers who are unable to work? Doesn't this create problems?

In a domestic environment, I would have thought that cutting the power to (for example) an air conditioner would not be great for it's longevity. And with all the OH&S stuff, it would appear that no air conditioning on a very hot day would give businesses cause for concern?

I can see the reasons for doing it, but like so many things these days it seems to be a risky and complex way of avoiding addressing the real issues.

Honestly, I suspect many of these measures are designed around the central core of "corporate profits", and limited by very conventional thinking. Installing a couple of kw of PV on a house these days costs very little and takes the load off the grid and central generators. The only reason I can see for not doing it is that it takes profit from the power companies, yet if they were clever they could actually profit from it. They could offer free PV installs on the basis of a reduced cost of power to the host? That gives them green energy, takes the load off the grid and generators, and still gives them an income stream that will pay off the investment after a few years and then continues to make profit!
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Smart Meters - how smart..?

Postby Tracker » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:37 am

.
How does a smart meter shed load..... selectively..!
IN, OUT AND NEUTRAL.. three wires? ? ????

You don't wire ANY specific circuit to the meter.

I would not have thought they would have high current relays, just sitting there, in case..
Or... do they use external switching devices, allowing communicated commands to be activated.

So, even IF there is an ability to receive commands, who sets it up.. NOT the meter installer...
..
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Re: solar feed in tariffs 2013 to 2014 nsw

Postby Smurf1976 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:33 am

zzsstt wrote:So what happens to people and businesses under such a regime? When talking about large scale switch-offs, in industry, does that not mean you suddenly have workers who are unable to work? Doesn't this create problems?

Yes there is a loss of production in the short term and yes that means a bit of wasted time by workers.

But it comes down to this. Australia is a high cost country and these businesses export virtually all of their production. Adding to that, Tasmania being "in the middle of nowhere" adds shipping costs higher than that which would occur if the same industries were somewhere like NSW or Qld.

So in short, these businesses wouldn't be operating at all if they didn't have something to offset these economic disadvantages. That's where the idea came from. One of them did actually close down at one point, due to ongoing losses, and it's no secret that the others are struggling financially too. The high AUD has been a big factor there, along with the other issues.

So if they can get electricity most of the time, and get it for 3 cents per kWh or thereabouts, then that tips the balance and makes them viable financially. There's no "subsidy" in that price, it's just case of the generator selling to industry most of the time, and grabbing big profits where it can by selling that same power to others when conditions permit. You don't have to sell too much at $12.50 per kWh in order to be able to sell the rest cheaply to industry whilst maintaining the average price as seen by the generator at a level that makes a profit for them too.

The other aspect is that the "technical" load shedding facilitates the generator getting supply at either a very low price (typically under 2c / kWh excluding carbon tax) when it's available. Ramp southbound flows from Vic - Tas to the max, taking the risk of the link going down (and DC links are generally quite unstable), safe in the knowledge that there's a "fail safe" that will maintain supply to homes and small business when, not if, there's a trip. The same approach also enables operation of the system so as to maximise the use of water and wind that would otherwise need to be wasted in order to have sufficient generating capacity online and maintain system security in the event of a fault. Whatever is gained that way, has effectively zero cost (ie 0 cents per kWh) to the generator.

So it's basically about (1) grab whatever power is available at very cheap prices either from Victoria or from local resources that would otherwise go to waste and (2) sell a bit back at incredibly high prices when the opportunity arises. That then enables supply to industry at very cheap prices, without which they wouldn't be in operation and many thousands of jobs would be gone (and losing thousands of jobs would be a disaster economically and socially in a relatively small place with unemployment already approaching 9%).

The saving on power costs is far more significant than any wasted time by workers. If you can take 1 cent / kWh off the power price, then that's a huge saving in a business where electricity is the single largest expense.

I should point out that I'm referring to large industries which buy directly from the generator (not via a retailer) and which are connected directly to the transmission network. Individual consumption of these customers ranges from 100,000 kW to over 300,000 kW on a 24/7/365 basis apart from the 1 or 2% of the time that supply is switched off.

Getting a bit off the original topic here, but anyway..... :D
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