Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby offgridQLD » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:13 am

I still don't see why having battery storage inside your home is a good idea. No one would have a issue with LPG bottles needing to be stored outside.

I'm just trying to think if we were to covert our rental in the city to offgrid I wouldn't want battery's (of any kind) in the house. We have a 10m2 garden shed with concrete floor about 4m from the house in the back yard. I would line/insulate it and throw a small 2.5kw split system on it. Dig a 600mm deep trench to the house.

Total investment trench free perhaps $1000 - 1500 to line the shed and install the split system.

If you want to create your own power and sleep safe at night its going to cost money. A external power room is a once off investment for the life of the property. All new homes can consider it in the plan and old home can have it retrofitted. It opens up a new market for people designing small IP rated and actively cooled (refrigerated) enclosures. a small enclosure with say a server rack style refrigeration unit would be perfect just expensive now as there isn't a market for it.

I'm defiantly not one for over regulation and red tape but I think this situation needs consideration even if a middle ground is agreed upon.
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby melmik » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:34 pm

The definition of inside a house or garage would be open to some interpretation as well. Lots of homes have large amounts of room under them, but that are not a sealed garage - eg our garage is not fully sealed, just a doored off area under the house. Does a garage door make a space a garage, or does the act of keeping your car in there make it a garage. If you don't keep your car in there does it become a legitimate storage shed?

Is under a house defined as in it? Our inverter is stored under the house and not in an enclosure. Is an inverter a fire risk like they claim battery systems are? Is the cabling running to thru your roof and walls to the batteries a fire risk?

My neighbour has a solid brick shed that stinks of mower fuel, but which would be allowed for battery storage....

I totally understand the need for standards, but where does it end. I wouldn't want 10 square metres of lead acid batteries laying around my laundry, but I'd quite happily put a Tesla in there, based purely on practical and aesthetic reasons. It might even depend on your confidence in the system and its installers - there's some dodgy shit out there that I'd rather keep a suburb or two away from me.

Like a lot of organisations, they have to be seen to be doing something to justify their existence.
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby jules » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:13 pm

I wouldn't want 10 square metres of lead acid batteries laying around my laundry,


Oh come on, they're actually quite cute, combining the visual qualities of an aquarium with bubbler, along with happy gurgling noises as though they've just enjoyed a good meal :D

The big picture appears to be, that we're heading for trouble with our national power supply. The coal fired plants are getting long in the tooth and total mismanagement of our gas resources [grrrrr] has meant that what should have been a cheap source of power for all sorts of uses around Australia, isn't [and isn't even making us money as an export].

Roof-top solar could and should make a big contribution to the problem but if it's to be widely taken up it has to be as cheap as is possible. If it's going to cost an extra $5-10,000 to build a compliant shed in the back yard it stands to reason that a whole lot less people will get into battery storage. [Incidentally, I notice the recommendation is, that the shed should only be accessible to power supply persons, which would make it useless for anything else]

Surely it should be possible to design a compliant "box" capable of withstanding a fire, or any other sort of chemical problem, which could be placed anywhere?

Maybe what's ticking over in the heads of govt. is a memory of the pink batts program. Even if batteries were successfully installed in 999,995 house the program would be a public disaster worthy of tipping out a government if 5 houses went up in flames.
Primary system: .8KW Trina panels; Plasmatronics PL40; 1,000Ah VRLA 12X2V battery bank; 1.7KW Selectronic inverter

Veteran system, semi retired: 6 X 55W Solarex 12V panels; Fangpusun CC; 6 X 2V, 35 year old 550Ah lead acid flooded cell batteries.
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby melmik » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:28 pm

I suppose 25 tonnes of SLA batteries in the laundry would dampen the slab vibration from my LG washing machine.

Imagine the horror when the standards gurus realise that there are thousands of home made 12/24 volt systems being towed around Australia at freeway speeds in rusty old camper traliers and corroded caravans by untrained (to tow) drivers with no concept of tralier ball/hitch weights or wheel bearing maintenance.....plus a couple of jerrycans of fuel held on with frayed occy straps and a gas bottle with a slightly stiff and cracked hose.
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby davef » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:30 pm

offgridQLD,

I still don't see why having battery storage inside your home is a good idea.


When you see the graphs on LiFePO4 internal resistance variation with temperature, the often quoted minimum charge temperature of 5C, and are trying to monitor for battery degradation then it seems to make sense.

Over the period of a few weeks of gradually decreasing temperature and monitoring IR of my brand-new $4K investment I was seeing the IR go up by a factor of 3-4 times. Ensuring the batteries were at 20C was returning IR measurements that roughly agreed with the manufacturer.

Maintaining the batteries at 20C, which only costs me in the order 100WH/day, removes a significant variable from the equation.

Also, the SOC measurement system was being upset by this large variation in IR.

Having them inside removes the small requirement for a battery heater. And maybe the house is more secure.

Mine are still outside.

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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby offgridQLD » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:07 pm

5- 10k enclosure sounds a bit over the top for cost.

Our lithium bank is just over 20kwh and fits into a space the size of two microwave ovens side by side. That's a fully offgrid home. 1/2 that size (one microwave oven) for a load shifting grid connected house bank. Not really a massive space you could fit in a box the size of a tool chest on a utility. Taking no more room than a split system Airconditioner unit outside the home. Every one seems to manage space for them and the required clearance around them.

As I said before build packages that are IP rated insulated with active cooling even heating if need be and mount the thing outside. (most of your electric cars have active cooling and heating on the battery. Or build the fire rated enclosure that vents outside and install that in your garage.
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:11 pm

Kurt, isnt your battery shed connected to the main building? If so it cant be used if the new Qld regs come into force! Just to be safe, you'd better leave the iMiev well out in the open too, and you can use it to store your laptop, and e-bike batteries, any torches, watches, cameras and phones! ;)

However, there's going to be a big push-back against this move by Standards Australia, and not just from within Australia. It really does look like a move to discourage home energy storage in batteries.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/global-batte ... ans-52711/
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby offgridQLD » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:03 pm

My power room is a separate concrete block room several meters away from the home the only connection. Between the house and the separate room is a solid cynder block wall bridging the two the wall doesn't even conect with the house just used to hide some power cables and perhaps offer some shelter to the cloths line.

From a fire safety perspective that wall isn't a issue if it became a issue through so e technicality of new rules the. 5 min with the concrete cutter and sledge hammer would solve it .

Imiev can be parked and charged the shed (with some additional insulation)

As for the laptops and torches well that is silly and would be near on imposable to bring a rule like that to play.

Yes I can see that some common sense and risk assessment needs to be done for the rules to be sensible but without some rules I can see people with banks under there beds without and battery management creating issues.
Offgrid 2008, Selectronic PS1 6kw/48v inverter, x 2 Midnite solar classic 150 MPPT, 3960w NE PV 24 x 165w BP panels, 4200w NW PV 21 x 200w DAQO PV, 16x400ah lithium.
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Re: Potential new standards for Lithium batteries

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:32 am

Maybe the Qld rules wont be quite so bad now...

http://www.energymatters.com.au/renewab ... on-em5963/
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proposed legislation for battery with FIT Qld

Postby Monkeytom » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:30 pm

[Moderator - merged into a thread already covering this]

What do you guys and Gals make of this?

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/docume ... 17T996.pdf
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