Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby Sojin_Muneshi » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:38 pm

I made my comments in response to others dismissing safety and fire concerns, and as I stated earlier:
I have not reviewed the details of the Standards myself in this regard (AS4777 part 3 etc), but I understand from recent discussions that the DC isolation is meant to be at the panels, not the inverter end of the DC cabling, therefore you would have to get on the roof to switch it off, ie isolate the DC cabling and the inverter, not just the input to the inverter?

I would assume experienced and qualified installers on this site will quickly confirm the correct design requirements?


So I wasnt making any claims as to non-compliance with AS4777 etc, I specifically stated I had reviewed the details, simply referring what I had been recently told in meetings relating to this issue.

Rich is quoted as stating DC isolation at the panel is a Victorian requirement, but I am not sure why its "only" a Victorian requirement? I will make enquiries back with those I had the earlier discussions.

But I do understand these issues are likely to cause a tightening up of design and inspection requirements.

Regards

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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby GreenTigress » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:33 am

I'm actually really naive when it comes to the concept of solar power. However, I'm curious to know if these claims are actually true. Wouldn't a tremendous amount of energy be needed for these things to occur? I think I recall one person mentioning that solar power is, for the most part, supplemental in most cases for the time being. Now, is this true as well? Right now, I use electricity but I use as little as possible. Can solar/wind power be a constant thing or is it truly supplemental?
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:52 pm

GreenTigress wrote:I think I recall one person mentioning that solar power is, for the most part, supplemental in most cases for the time being. Now, is this true as well? Right now, I use electricity but I use as little as possible. Can solar/wind power be a constant thing or is it truly supplemental?


It's not supplemental for those of us living off-grid!

There was some discussion about how long it takes to "repay" the dirty power used to make PV panels on the forum a fair while back. Maybe one day we will see PV/wind powered PV manufacturing facilities. My solar trackers were welded on PV power, so I see no reason why larger manufacturers couldn't get off their coal fired power habit :)

***However, this is the wrong thread to discuss such things!***
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby rg767 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:43 pm

it doesn't matter what you isolate and where because if the sun is shining the panels are live.
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby rg767 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:45 pm

Oh and the story is inflammatory rubbish...
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby generic_george » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:00 pm

As a CEC accredited designer and a member of the NSW RFS, I can hopefully provide some information that will clarify the safety issues of grid connected solar systems in a fire.
In the NSW RFS, it is common practise to use water to fight fires involving electricity. The most common situation is a fire on top of an electricity pole. Providing that sufficient distance is kept between the pole and the nozzle, and ensuring that the stream is broken up by the time it hits the wires, it is safe to apply water on voltages up to 200kV.
Solar systems are less than 1kV. Also, there is almost always no reference to ground for the DC. Theoretically, one could grab either the positive or negative lead of the DC cable and not receive a shock. (The shock would only happen when you grab BOTH cables)
Whilst I cannot comment on other fire services, I suspect that they would simply treat any fire invoving solar systems an electrical fire and take appropriate precautions.
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby witzl » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:51 pm

it would've made more sense if the power that be originally thought to keep string voltages in the ELV range (ie, below 100Vdc)... rather than up around 500Vdc.

DC voltage is far more lethal than AC, as it carries a LOT more energy than an equivalent AC voltage.
Hence why DC breakers are more expensive than AC ones, and using an AC breaker on a DC supply will melt/burn the AC breaker (as another poster mentioned already).

Im not sure how that translates to fire fighting a house with a rooftop solar system.... but i know a couple of NSW fireys who say they are unwilling to work on a house with rooftop solar - be that warranted or not, it's the bloke holding the hose and driving the truck that saves your house! If he's not willing, then your house burns down.

To me it would just make more sense for strings to be kept in extra-low voltage ranges. Much safer for all involved, and would only require a little more cabling. Of course it would be near impossible to get the industry to backflip on its pretty standard 500Vdc string voltages now.
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:01 pm

witzl wrote:it would've made more sense if the power that be originally thought to keep string voltages in the ELV range (ie, below 100Vdc)... rather than up around 500Vdc.


The aim is for maximum efficiency these days, and using a higher voltage helps a bit there.

DC voltage is far more lethal than AC, as it carries a LOT more energy than an equivalent AC voltage.[


My dad (retired sparky) always said the main reason DC is more lethal is that it is a constant voltage rather than the cycling @ 50Hz of mains AC which goes through 0Volts each cycle, and it doesn't throw you off or give you a chance to let go the way AC does, you just hold on in constant muscle spasm and fry :shock: :shock: :shock:

Latronics grid connect PVE1200 operates with an input voltage of under 100V, but their higher power PVE2500 operates at up to 200V, but as you mention, most are operating at ~500V

As previously pointed out, fireys still fight the fires if there are solar panels...

I remember at one training exercise we did at work, that happened to be under power lines, someone was waving the hose around and it went across the 415V lines... no one was electrocuted.
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby disenchant@solar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:30 pm

witzl wrote:it would've made more sense if the power that be originally thought to keep string voltages in the ELV range (ie, below 100Vdc)... rather than up around 500Vdc.

DC voltage is far more lethal than AC, as it carries a LOT more energy than an equivalent AC voltage.
Hence why DC breakers are more expensive than AC ones, and using an AC breaker on a DC supply will melt/burn the AC breaker (as another poster mentioned already).

Im not sure how that translates to fire fighting a house with a rooftop solar system.... but i know a couple of NSW fireys who say they are unwilling to work on a house with rooftop solar - be that warranted or not, it's the bloke holding the hose and driving the truck that saves your house! If he's not willing, then your house burns down.

To me it would just make more sense for strings to be kept in extra-low voltage ranges. Much safer for all involved, and would only require a little more cabling. Of course it would be near impossible to get the industry to backflip on its pretty standard 500Vdc string voltages now.


Problem with ELV is the same for a.c. it is impractical because cabling sizing will be so much largerand all inverters will have to be changed out for ELV.

The d.c. does'nt carry more energy than a.c. its incomparable in that respect.
A.C. mains is derived from a low impedance source so can have big amps feeding faults but crosses zero many times a second so switching of normal operating currents do'nt create a problem but an under KA rated a.c. breaker automatically disconnecting a fault can blow too more explosively though, i've seen many in switchboards and this problem is widespread and rarely attended to and is getting worse as the A.C. network is being upgraded causing bigger KA at the switchboards. 3KA was old standard domestic now it's 6KA
D.C. draws a long switching arc , aka welder, so will burn a device that cannot draw out and extinguish it internally. With solar the source has a limited currrent,a higher source impedance as you probably know.

Fireys should carry CO2 or foam for these fires though, but hey how much can you carry for a fire thats spread to the roof timbers too, would think a cable or panel fire would more than likely burn itself out though.
But hey i've long been thinking of putting on my COC's that solar systems i fit,or anyone elses, do not comply with AS standards for automatic disconnection of cable arcs that can cause fires,as there is nothing available to comply with this ruling it is skirted and hence building codes too.

On a similar note, I think there should be a recall and remove all d.c. polorised breakers and retrofit with rotorary isolators or similar rated to 1kV and then it can cater for any size system and if upgraded there should never be an issue, it's been an over site by the regulatory bodies not being quick enough, playing catch up now though.
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Re: Those deadly, Green Nazi solar panels????

Postby bpratt » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:26 pm

[quote="disenchant@solar"

Fireys should carry CO2 or foam for these fires though.[/quote]

Foam or AFFF is as good as and as bad as water is on electrical fires.

Of course if the whole house or roof is involved, the removal of 2 sides of the fire triangle (taking away the heat and oxygen from the fire) by water is the best way to do it.


Safe firefighting practices minimises the risk.

Don't forget most house fires have the electricity still connected when fire fighting is started, as sometimes they can not isolate the power from the property by normal means.
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