Energy Matters Forums

[Tracker]

.
As we look into the winter sky we occasionally see those Jet-Trails, Contrails, or Ice-trails, spreading out behind a jet-liner and marvel at the specter.
These contrails are formed mainly from the water produced by burning Avgas in the jet's engines, and this water instantly freezes to form micro-ice particles.

In the Northern Hemisphere, there are concerns that these trails no longer act as they did years ago and that now, they linger and linger and spread, to form a soupy layer that reduces the sun's intensity.
Coincidentally, on the ground, and in the air, readings of Aluminium and Barium and Strontium are wildly exceeding health limits. Trees and plants are dying, and the normal soil flora are disappearing. High altitude snow on mountains are grossly polluted by there materials.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0khstYDLA
What in the World Are They Spraying?

When I first started watching this Documentary, I very nearly turned off, thinking that this was one of the worst "Conspiracy Theories" that I had heard about, and I DO believe that Conspiracies DO exist.

As I got into the movie, I started to see true science appearing and this seemed to be reflected in environmental facts.
Either there are MANY scientists who are happy to LIE (like JuLIAR Gillard), or there is some real truth in their findings.

I do not think that this is happening in our region, but given the nature of the globe's ocean and air currents, we have to think that we are not immune from the problem, if it does exist.. If the issue is correct, then one would assume that aircraft refueling in the affected areas would be causing the same problems here on their return.

If you have the time - have a look at the presentation and form your own opinion !

To those in the know - Is it possible that materials mentioned, can be added to jet-fuel, and thus dispersed over vast areas..?
..
.

[Gordon-Loomberah]

Noooooooooo, stop this nonsense now!

These "chemtrail" clowns have been around at least 15 years, but previously have been restricted to the US. Now it seems someone has let them out and they are posting their signs on trees beside the highway in Oz, at least in rural areas, I dont know about the city.
There is a damn good reason there are more condensation/vapour trails in the sky these days, there are a LOT more planes! The trails you see generally only occur when the air temperature is around -35C, and not when its much warmer or colder than that. Quite often planes fly across the sky with no vapour trail, do they have special exclusion from the big government conspiracy to poison us all and control our minds... or is the air temperature a bit warmer. You be the judge!
Do you not think its more reasonable there is so much AlO2 around due to people using Al for cooking pans and many other uses where the light weight of Al is better than steel?
The soil is naturally full of Al02, Aluminium being one of the most common elements in the Earth's crust. It naturally oxidises due to the O2 in the atmosphere.

Yes, the vapour trails do reduce the amount of sunlight making it to the ground, just the same as other clouds do, ice is a good reflector.

Its just another pile of nonsense from the US, and should be treated as such, viewing their Utoob video is only going to encourage them more, and I wont be wasting my time on it.

[Tracker]

.
Thanks Gordon - It's a topic that I just did not want to believe, but wondered at some of the claims..

I want to believe you and I know that I have seen aircraft path plots for the US and it is completely COVERED,
so I can completely understand that in winter the sky's could be fully matrixed with contrails, so I initially said CRAP to the start of the presentation.
BUT - We have the claim that these materials are being used and we have reports that SNOW contamination matches the claims.
Contaminated Pristine Snow would be a complete give away, as it could not be contaminated from the earth below.
I must try and find if there is an Aluminium smelter near the mountain they talk about

If we can trust the so called SCIENTISTS that did the tests, how would you justify that AlO2 contamination,
or alternatively, are they just so crazy over there that they will lie about such claims.

After all, we have Scientists who support Climate Change and other who refute it totally !

In the Doco, there are various portions of international workshops on Geo-Engineering and talking about the subject, so unless they were staged for effect, then surely someone would have just stood up and said "CRAP - Can't happen - The Jet Engines would fall of planes, and that we would surely see"

We know that the US Government will lie on the basis of need to know, and thus, if we thought that it was true, then how could they get away with it.
They could only legislate that AlO2 additives be added to Jet-Fuel.
I can't see 'Monsanto' just asking BP to add Alo2 to JetFuel - as a favor, so they could dominate the world with GM crops of AlO2 tolerant crops..

No - I would just like to know how the rational-seeming scientists are being deceived..

I don't believe it, but wonder at the claimed findings, and how supposed known scientists , support the theory..
..
.

[Gordon-Loomberah]

Who knows where the fall-out is coming from, but I do know that in Southern Texas at a lookout in Big Bend NP near the Rio Grande, on the Mexican border, there is a sign explaining why you cant see the distant mountains anymore. It is pollution from the Ohio Valley - industrial pollution spreading out over much of the USA- look on a map and you will get an iea of the scale. Sometimes when you fly from Phoenix Az to Los Angeles you are in or above the LA smog plume for almost the entire flight. A lot of the smog is from automobiles, running internal combustion engines constructed from Aluminium. Ever had a look at an old engine and seen the wear and corrosion of the Al parts? I'll leave it for you to work out where some of that might end up.

Who needs special chemical additives to jet fuel to do whatever these nutters are claiming, when industry and transportation is providing more than enough pollution to do the job already!

[Tracker]

.
Gordon - What I find most disturbing , is the way that "Experts" will come on board with these claims and conspiracies. Interestingly and thankfully, no others have added their concerns to my crazy question..

If one actually watches the Doco' , you are naturally left with doubts that there might just be some fact to the suggestions. "How can these reputable people believe this crap?" When I first saw the crazy email and reluctantly watched the Doco', I asked the question of an aviation engineer, and a Petro-Chem Engineer, as to the chance of clandestine AvGas contamination, and needless they said "Impossible".
So, the only remaining way that the materials could be distributed, is to spray it into the exhausts of the engines for atomisation.
This is clearly bloody crazy, as someone would notice the plumbing and the tankers delivering a mysterious powder, to the craft. AND - If you know the aviation industry, you can't add a single bolt to an AirCraft, unless it has been tested and registered and tracked !

To anyone reading this crap, and thinks that there still is a conspiracy, then consider this.
If the US Government was using this technique (via Military jets), to reduce the solar insolation over the USA ( Tornado Control ???) , then they would be doing it during the summer months, more than winter.
Yet, we understand that the phenomena is being detected in SNOW which implies winter, and as Gordon has said - the Con-Trails occur in winter's chilly upper-atmosphere.
We see these contrails in winter, but NOT in summer, so do we too declare a conspiracy during winter.

So, I end back with my first comment "What I find most disturbing , is the way that "Experts" will come on board with these claims and conspiracies."

If scientists can be conned into accepting this crap, without any plausible delivery technique, then what does it say for Scientists support of Man-Made-Climate-Change Science ?

The answer to my Topic Question is clear "Contrail - and it's another stupid Conspiracy Theory"...

Having come to this point - I have NO DOUBT that there would be scientists holding seminars on Geo-Engineering, and talking about how they could "Theoretically Reflect Sunlight" back into space.
As Gordon has said - the industrial contamination in the USA is almost palpable, and has led to various law suits over the years. I am still curious if there is an Aluminium Smelter spewing crap into the air near the conspiracy mountain, and which is returned to earth via the winters snow falls..
Anyone up on the US geography ?
..
.

[Smurf1976]

I've been aware of this one for quite some time and dismissed it as just another crackpot theory.

Then I personally witnessed a very visible trail coming directly from the wing (not the engines) on a flight between Adelaide and Melbourne. This was a routine commercial flight operated by a major airline. I was a passenger on this plane.

So, for reasons I am not aware of, it is certainly possible that a visible white trail can be created by an aeroplane from sources other than the engines. I have seen it happen with my own eyes just a few weeks ago.

Anyone got an explanation for it? I can understand it coming from the engines, since burning aviation fuel (or any other fuel made from oil) releases water vapour as a by-product, but I do not understand why it would come directly from the wings. Anyone know?

Unrelated to this, it is fairly well known in Tasmania that the Hydro conducts cloud seeding using silver iodide each year during the wetter months. This involves the intentional release of particles from aircraft via special burners. The purpose is to increase rainfall and hence run-off into the Hydro's power scheme water catchments. The motivation is largely economic, since the cost of the cloud seeding is trivial compared to the value of the additional electricity produced from the resultant rainfall.

[Gordon-Loomberah]

Then I personally witnessed a very visible trail coming directly from the wing (not the engines) on a flight between Adelaide and Melbourne. This was a routine commercial flight operated by a major airline. I was a passenger on this plane.

Low pressure occurs in the the wingtip vortices and water vapour can condense there. If the air temperature is not much different to the dew point, it's very common to see condensation trails forming from the wing tips and sometimes other places across the wing when coming in to land.

The laws of physics are not a conspiracy theory!

[Tracker]

The laws of physics are not a conspiracy theory!

Thank you Gordon - Dead Right !

Some of the most awesome photos I have viewed have been of fighter jets at LOW altitude , creating the vortex vapour-trails, when pulling into a steep climb.. So even where the air temperature is way ABOVE freezing, the low pressure can cause the condensation.
I too have seen the high altitude jets with TWO trails, from a four engine craft..
It caused me to grab the Bi-Nocks and thus saw the trails from beyond the WING-TIPS.. Physics can be beautiful !

I've been aware of this one for quite some time and dismissed it as just another crackpot theory.

Heaven only know what rock I have been under, but it was the first time I encountered the crazy email/link, and the "Science" of the supporters was pretty convincing, proving that "(Some) Scientists can be bought to provide desired conclusions".. ie. Anthropogenic-Climate-Change or NOT

I suppose that it is like the Current-Affairs programs, who will find a scientist somewhere, to support wild claims, and somehow, they come up with justifications..

The bottom line comes from my Air-Craft Engineer friend who explained how totally ludicrous the claim was, to contaminate fuel in a plane carrying hundreds of people.. Also remembering that samples are often drained from craft for complete analysis..
..
.

[Alex Morrow]

Nothing to add to the discussion, so I'll just post the photo I often have on my desktop. (Courtesy RAAF.)

[Gordon-Loomberah]

Some nice wing tip vortex condensation trails here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices