Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby davidg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:07 am

bpratt wrote:most dishwashers I have looked at only have one water input, and that's cold water only.

I've only seen dishwashers that have one water input, the star rating is still based on whether it's either connect to hot water or connect to hot water, not both at the same time, unless you feed it via some 2 tap mixer like might be in a shower. Even the new one we have here, was replaced under warranty because it kept failing and requiring major repairs also under warranty each time, has both a hot and cold star rating with only one water input, that's pretty typical.
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby bpratt » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:05 pm

Gordon-Loomberah wrote:The adjustable tempering valve at the washing machine takes its hot from untempered hot, ie, before the tempering valve that supplies shower and sink in bathroom and kitchen sink and dishwasher.

BTW, you may have forgotten about this thread where I posted some graphs:
living-green/topic1576.html


I thought there was a thread here, but I obviously didn't put the right search terms in there to find it.

Just gone back to that thread, and it proves if you're using SHW, you're mad not to use hotwater through a tempering valve to do what you want.

That tempering valve you have still gives you the option to go back to a cold water wash.

Since the new house isn't built yet, I'll have to speak to the plumber about taking a hot line prior to the tempering valve on the SHW system down to the laundry, and put an adjustable tempering valve down there.
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby davidg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:59 pm

davidg wrote:it's either connect to "hot water or connect to hot water", not both at the same time, unless

I did a typo, it's been too long to edit it anymore.................it was supposed to say

"connect to cold water or connect to hot water" :oops:
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby davidg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:04 pm

bpratt wrote:put an adjustable tempering valve down there.

Or maybe you could use a flick mixer or similar or two taps that the output mixes together as has been been around forever or at least since showers became very common place. More than one way to do it.
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby bpratt » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:16 pm

davidg wrote:
bpratt wrote:put an adjustable tempering valve down there.

Or maybe you could use a flick mixer or similar or two taps that the output mixes together as has been been around forever or at least since showers became very common place. More than one way to do it.


Thought I could cheat with a flick mixer, but there'd be too much variability with them.

Sooner stick with a tempering valve that will normally remain set to say 40, and only I will know how to change it, less hands that don't know what's what (mum) think they know what they're doing. ;)
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby Smurf1976 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:45 pm

I just run the dishwasher on straight hot water (60 degrees).

It does end up using more heat as such, roughly double, compared to using cold water. That's the downside.

The upside? Cycle time is shorter so less wear on the pump and less power used. And whilst the quantity of water being heated is roughly doubled, hot water from a heat pump on off-peak tariff is one sixth the cost of heating water in the dishwasher on flat rate tariff. So it's cheaper overall.

Whilst this contradicts theory, in my experience it actually washes better on hot than on cold too. I don't eat eggs so no issue there, but I heat lots of stories of people having to rinse things before washing and I've never found that necessary. Just scrape any solids off, put everything in the machine and run it. Easy.

For the washing machine, that has two separate inlets one for hot and one for cold.
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby Tracker » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:33 am

..
I have always thought that if I was to build a new home. Then I would design it around a utilities room, which would contain all the working bits.. Batteries, Inverters, hot water etc etc.
So the plumbing runs would be VERY short... and everything would be completely accessible, serviceable ..
The only problem being how to have a legal LPg gassed boost, but that would likely be not needed with a good SHW with excess PV to act as boost..
..
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby offgridQLD » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:23 am

We have two dish draws that use about 6.7lt of water each on normal cycle less on eco. Combined they offer a larger capacity than one single dishwasher but use less water - power. that said I wouldn't recommend them to everyone as there is a few faults that can spring up on them. Usually the led selector button cycling like crazy due to condensation behind them (easy once off cure with epoxy resin).

Anyhow I find that your not heating any more than two kettles worth of hot water for one cycle. If your off grid system is overcome by boiling the jug two times then perhaps another panel or two would help. On normal cycle they only consume 0.367kwh a cycle. (this includes the pump and the water heater)

Actually when I measured it the consumption was slightly less than advertised.Perhaps my tank water was slightly warmer then the testing spec.

0.327kwh and 1w idle .
Image

Our washing machine is a Asco brand front loader that's also heating it's own water. I find 40C setting is fine for normal washing. Though I do run towels and bedding at 60C. On 40C eco setting it uses 25lt of water and 0.4kwh of electricity. (This consumption includes the water pump agitation ,1400rpm spin and water heating)

I guess what I am getting at is if you already have a solar hot water system then there is some small saving to be made by supplying hot water. I might be able to save 0.5kwh a day. (if your on the grid that's 15 cents) In Gordons case he has a stack of solar hot water potential so why not use it.

This brings up another topic that was discussed before . Is it better value to just add more PV and a well insulated electric element hot water system (tank) or a solar hot water vac tube. As once the solar hot water heater has heated the water it's gong to wast. Once PV - electricity has heated the water its perhaps easier to find other uses for the extra electricity potential.

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Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby Tracker » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:38 am

..
Just reading general comments...

FLICK Mixer... would that work as a practical device.. :idea:

I assume they are a single output with controlled Hot/Cold inputs and no non return..

The machine would just stop/start the flow, leaving the hot/cold inputs connected thru the tap.. :(

You could not leave it in this position as hot would bleed to the cold and vicki-versa during operation AND... at all other times... depending on relative pressures..
The thermostatic control would be the better choice, as I understand it would open the hot for as long as needed, until the temperature control starts to take over and temper the flow..
Ie... you will charge the hot pipe quickly..
..
.
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Re: Saving power on dishwashers and washing machines

Postby bpratt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:26 am

offgridQLD wrote:This brings up another topic that was discussed before . Is it better value to just add more PV and a well insulated electric element hot water system (tank) or a solar hot water vac tube. As once the solar hot water heater has heated the water it's gong to wast. Once PV - electricity has heated the water its perhaps easier to find other uses for the extra electricity potential.


That's what I'm looking at, using water that has already been heated by the sun in a ET system, rather than using what I'd call a inefficient form of heating by the washing machine or dishwasher.

Yes, on a offgrid system you aren't really paying for it (ignoring the long term costs), but I feel that using your PV power to heat up water in these devices is a waste of effort and can be better used, i.e. discharging your batteries unnecessarily.

Even on a grid powered house, there would have to be more tangible savings over the lifetime of living there if you were able to supply already heated water to those two devices. Particulary when these smarter devices sense when the temperature has been reached before continuing the wash cycles, and therefore shorter overall washing cycles.


I was talking to someone the other day about outdoor spas, and was discussing the heating options, and the thought came to mind about using SHW through a closed system that has some form of 'radiator' immersed somewhere in the spa (in the pump/filter system), that was set on a timer to only operate during normal daylight hours.

60+ degrees from a SHW system with a small pump, like the pump used to move the water from the tank to the ET's , with a thermostat to turn off the pump when temperature has been reached whilst the timer is turned on.

I would love to have a spa, but that ain't going to happen for several years after building the new house. :(
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