I-miev all electric car.

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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby Gordon-Loomberah » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:43 pm

Please send me several tons of ice and snow Curt, it's too hot here!

http://batteryuniversity.com/search/sea ... ndar+life/
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby offgridQLD » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:54 pm

This is what Tesla have to say about it

Calendar Life Li-ion cells lose capacity with time, even if they are just sitting on a shelf. They lose the most early in their life (year one) and then continue to lose capacity gradually thereafter. Two factors shorten calendar life considerably: lifetime average temperature and time spent at high states of charge. Batteries would last the longest if they were stored in a refrigerator at a very low state of charge. They age the fastest when stored in a hot place at a full state of charge – like those in your laptop computer, plugged into its charger and being cooked by a toasty Pentium processor. At Tesla Motors one of our key inventions to maximize battery lifetime is a sophisticated liquid cooling system that maintains a favorable temperature for the batteries, even under extreme ambient conditions. Our cooling system engages to try and keep the temperature of the cells below 35° C at all times and the lifetime average temperature at or below 25° C.
The battery pack gets a lift

The other significant factor that affects calendar aging is the charge state of the battery during storage. At higher charge states cells lose capacity faster. This is a second reason why we have limited our maximum state of charge to 4.15V/cell instead of 4.2V/cell. We also offer the driver the option of charging to only 3.8V/cell (~50 percent) or 4.10V/cell (~90 percent) to further extend calendar life if the full vehicle range is not needed on the next few trips. We advise and encourage a full (4.15V/cell) charge only when it is needed. So what does this all mean for the real-world performance of a car? As batteries in any EV age, they lose capacity and the vehicle will lose range. This is unavoidable and true in any EV with any type of battery. You can think of this as a very slow reduction in the volume of your vehicle’s “gas tank” over its lifetime. We limit how fast this aging and loss of range happens by working very hard to select the best cells, design the best cooling systems, and carefully manage charge states. By doing all of this we expect more than 100,000 miles of driving range and more than five years of useful life. However, at the end of this period the pack will have less capacity than when new (just like an internal combustion engine has less power and much worse emissions than when new). If, for example, you drive 10,000 miles per year at the end of five years you will have around 70 percent of the energy storage capacity of when new


Just don't cook the cells and when you can store the car with the battery at 50% or lower for long periods.The cells will still age each year but just not as quick as cells bursting at 100% SOC and baked all the time.

The difference between a ICE car and a EV is within reason a petrol motor straight off the showroom can sit unused for 20 years and it will not have deteriorated (worn) yes I know rubber will perish and parts exposed to air without oil coating will rust but for the sake of the argument it will be the same engine as new. Though the battery on a EV would have lost capacity over that time.

I noticed it the most when talking to some people who have Imiev's with almost 100,000km on them that have similar (perhaps only slightly less) capacity remaining than some people with 15,000 - 30,000km.
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby offgridQLD » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:03 pm

Yes send me some snow to.

Productive outdoor periods of the day are limited to before 9am and after 5pm.

Looking forward to a storm and some rain to cool things down .....could get lucky today or over the weekend but the relief will be short lived.
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby conklinc » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:34 am

Kurt,

This is worrisome. I've had my i-MiEV for 3 1/2 years now, it is a '12. With Mitsubishi ceasing production of the model, I rather doubt replacement battery packs will be available. I do 90-95% of my travels with her. I try not to keep her topped up, I top her up the night before when I know that I'll be driving some distance. I'm comfortable with her, I know how far she can go, so no range anxiety here. I'd really love to have the new Chevy Bolt, but I've never paid $35,500 for a car in my life.

Regards,

Curt
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby offgridQLD » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:21 am

Well the Bolt would be way more than $35k in AU. I would guess $60 ish if we even get it in right hand drive.

I'm reasonably sure the news that they where not making the imiev anymore came from some one jumping the gun and the incorect news spread. The Imieves will be for sale in other parts of the world. (Though personally I think they are getting a bit long in the tooth being a 10 year old design)

Yuasa make the LEV50 and LEV50n cells used in the imiev. So I'm sure the cells will still be available. Yuasa now make a LEV75 not sure if energy density has improved enough that they can now fit 75ah in the same dimementions as 50ah of the past but it's not imposable as the LEV50 where only 110wh /kg not that impressive now days.

You can still purchase parts for old Mitsubishi models not in production anymore for many years so I don't see why the imive would be any different.
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby australsolarier » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:53 am

i was just watching a youtube about lithium batteries, they specialize in making tests with different electrolytes. seemingly this is the most important ingredient for longevity and cycle numbers.
basically their conclusion was the colder the lithium battery is kept, the more cycles. they tested the tesla and other car batteries charging to 4.2volts as compared to 4.1volts. above 4.1v the cycles are drastically shortened. yes storing is not good at full charge.
they did however not mention anything about how long the batteries last if you do not use them. this can only be tested by having one sitting for 20 years or so on the shelf and then check their capacity. the presenter however had a phone battery on the shelf for 8 years or something and he reckons it was as good as new.

their testing algorithm was done with a charger/discharger sensing 0.001% difference. after 50 or so cycles they could then project to thousands of cycles.

personally i think the life of the lithium battery has yet to be established.

they also compared fast to slow charging and discharging. the fast charging is definitively easier on the lithium batteries. (i suppose they are not hanging around that long in the high voltages)

i found the link for those of you that have plenty of time on their hands, it is longer than an hour, but i found it highly interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs&t=0s
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby offgridQLD » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:30 pm

Thanks for the link I will take a look. Edit: yes I watch that one a few years ago good info.

I have the aircon blasting away at my house lithium bank house battery today BAT: 23.1°C. Time will tell if that results in a long bank life.


The Imiev stored in the house garage vs the shed due to how hot the shed gets. The garage door faces south and there are other rooms on all three walls that face outside. so kind of double insulated in the center of the house. The walls and roof are also insulated along with the thermal mass of the concrete keeps the temps stable. So excluding the air conditioned zones the garage is actually the coolest room in the house.

Though what usually happens is as I charge battery's they get warmer (even when you charge them slowly) Our Imiev is driven 25km round trip at 8am then it's put back on charge at 9:30am until 2:30pm and then driven 25km again. Driving the car gets the battery's warm.

Then as soon as you get home I charging the battery's so its like they are always doing some kind of work being charged or discharged. They only rest from 3:30pm - 8:00am.

Take today for example its 27c outside 25c in the garage and the Imiev has been on charge for about 2hrs when I'm not in a hurry I select a lowish rate 1500w. The SOC is about 70% now and the average cell temp of the 88 cells is 27.1C . So there is always some temp gain when charging.
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby australsolarier » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:07 pm

here we have 30.5 and 37 degrees forecast for tomorrow. usually here at the coast we get maybe 7 days over 30 degrees a year, but this year looks like a five fold increase.
i suppose the battery being 27 degrees is nothing to worry about, i think 40 degrees is the point to start worrying.
i test charged my 48v/400ah lifepo4 battery from the grid with 140amps, from 50% SOC, some time ago and it encreased the temperature 2 degrees. this battery sits so around 20 degrees. though the selectronic battery sensor says 18 degrees, i think it is 2 degrees low.
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby offgridQLD » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:18 pm

A lot depends on how you measure the cell temp.

At the moment I have my power room set up at 22C (air conditioning) and the battery temp is showing 23C. This is midnight solar flat stick on cell temp monitor and its sandwiched onto the side of the 8th cell of 16 cell bank. Its shielded from any direct cool air from the air conditioner and the mass of the bank should give a reasonable indication of cell temp though I feel at the center of the cell it would be hotter.

As long as the cells are in a 22C ambient temp environment MAX there entire life I don't think there is much more I can do to baby them.

As shown in the video the average cell temp over the life of the cell is the important number.
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Re: I-miev all electric car.

Postby australsolarier » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:29 pm

my aircon is set to 22 degrees also, but it is more like 20 degrees inside the power room. my battery sensor is also sandwiched between two blocks of batteries. the infrared sensor also says 20 degrees on the batteries.
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